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Author Topic: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
Jediflyer 
Registered: Dec '01
6475_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 8/8/07 7:28pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
How did nonintervetionism before WWI hurt the U.S., Ender?

Also, why do you keep conflating "not sticking our nose in everyone's business" with isolationism?

 

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Ender_Sai 
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: Feb '01
44324_Kyle Katarn
Date Posted: 8/8/07 7:32pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
Because that was the official foreign policy mandate int he US Jediflyer?

Ya think that could be it?

E_S

 

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GrandAdmiralJello 
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
 Registered: Nov '00
44644_Imperial Laurels
Date Posted: 8/9/07 2:39am Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
Noninterventionism is akin to complicity by omission.

 

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Vates Jυλιαδις
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius
Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes;
pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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GrandAdmiralThrawn66 
Registered: Jun '02
6528_Thrawn
Date Posted: 8/9/07 9:53am Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities - Date Edited: 8/9/07 9:55am (1 edits total) Edited By: GrandAdmiralThrawn66
GrandAdmiralJello posted:
Noninterventionism is akin to complicity by omission.

Fine with me









Should stay out of everything unless NATO, or the UN needs help. We should have a huge navy and air force and scrap the army. Have like 40,000 soldiers and 300 tanks, mostly trained as special forces and peacekeeps(to be used flying the UN banner). Close some of these ever increasing foriegn bases, poor defense money into navy air force and use the armies portion for healthcare, education, to spur economic and manufacturing growth, the reduction of dependance on fossil fuels, sea exploration, space exploration, mineral enhancement.......

 
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GrandAdmiralJello 
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
 Registered: Nov '00
44644_Imperial Laurels
Date Posted: 8/9/07 2:07pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
There isn't enough money for that.

The Department of Defense, all told, uses 3.5% of the GDP.

Various entitlements such as healthcare and social security use 40% of the GDP--in other words, around 4.8 trillion dollars.

Want to know what's really getting the US into debt? It's not the military. It's not even the war.

So, were we to follow your thinking then it would be far more sensible to scrap healthcare and welfare and pour money into the military.

 

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Vates Jυλιαδις
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius
Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes;
pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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ShaneP 
Registered: Mar '01
13763_ESB Poster
Date Posted: 8/9/07 2:11pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities - Date Edited: 8/9/07 2:14pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ShaneP
Close some of these ever increasing foriegn bases

Oh, but we're opening new ones, including a handful in the former Soviet-"stans"(Turkmeni,Uzbeki, Tajiki, etc).

And those bases coincide with the expansion of a large oil pipeline that will eventually supply some crude to Big Oil.

Coincidence?

No.

Corporate Empire.

 

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Rogue_Follower 
Title: Manager: Literature
 Registered: Nov '03
6468_Blackhole
Date Posted: 8/9/07 2:15pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
GrandAdmiralThrawn66 posted:
Should stay out of everything unless NATO, or the UN needs help. We should have a huge navy and air force and scrap the army. Have like 40,000 soldiers and 300 tanks, mostly trained as special forces and peacekeeps(to be used flying the UN banner). Close some of these ever increasing foriegn bases, poor defense money into navy air force and use the armies portion for healthcare, education, to spur economic and manufacturing growth, the reduction of dependance on fossil fuels, sea exploration, space exploration, mineral enhancement.......

The defense budget already is applied to many of those things. I was reading through a listing of programs the defense budget is supporting in my area, and I was rather surprised to see a number of alternative/renewable energy projects on there. Also, the military does support sea exploration, mineral and materials enhancement, and a whole host of other research projects. Contrary to popular belief, the military doesn't just spend its money on blowing stuff up...

 
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ShaneP 
Registered: Mar '01
13763_ESB Poster
Date Posted: 8/9/07 2:18pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities - Date Edited: 8/9/07 2:24pm (2 edits total) Edited By: ShaneP
Alot of commercially-applied innovations received their intial r&d through military projects.

Same with the space program's research spinoffs into building materials, medicine,etc.

edit
The one major difference in the late Roman empire and the modern United States is a formal division ala West and East.

 

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Jabbadabbado 
Title: Senate Floor Manager
 Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 8/9/07 2:23pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities - Date Edited: 8/9/07 2:24pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Jabbadabbado
GrandAdmiralJello, are you confusing GDP with the federal budget? Military spending may only be 3.5% of GDP, but it's about a fifth of the federal budget, approaching a quarter if you include veterans benefits.

 

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GrandAdmiralJello 
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
 Registered: Nov '00
44644_Imperial Laurels
Date Posted: 8/9/07 2:39pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
No, I'm using GDP intentionally. The percentage of national wealth is more important than the percentage in the government's spending allocation.

 

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Vates Jυλιαδις
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius
Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes;
pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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ShaneP 
Registered: Mar '01
13763_ESB Poster
Date Posted: 8/9/07 2:47pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
Will our downfall be due to a welfare crunch?

We wouldn't be the first empire to decline due to a financial crisis.

Theories abound about late Rome's runaway inflation and restless plebians pouring into the city.

 

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Rogue_Follower 
Title: Manager: Literature
 Registered: Nov '03
6468_Blackhole
Date Posted: 8/9/07 2:58pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities - Date Edited: 8/9/07 2:59pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Rogue_Follower
The military may have about a fifth of the budget, but healthcare, welfare, and social security get more. Some federal program budget figures from the 2008 budget:

Total budget: $2,941,121,000,000 (estimated)
Department of Health and Human Services: $699,023,000,000 (estimated)
Social Security Administration: $655,564,000,000 (estimated)
Department of Defense - Military: $624,638,000,000 (estimated)
Department of Veterans Affairs: $84,360,000,000 (estimated)


2008 Budget Fact Sheet (.pdf).

 
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Jabbadabbado 
Title: Senate Floor Manager
 Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 8/9/07 2:58pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
No, I'm using GDP intentionally. The percentage of national wealth is more important than the percentage in the government's spending allocation.

You got this part wrong though: "Various entitlements such as healthcare and social security use 40% of the GDP--in other words, around 4.8 trillion dollars."

HHS is about $700 billion. Social security is about $600 billion. Together that's about $1.3 trillion, or about 10% of GDP, or 44% of the federal budget. The entire federal budget is only a bit more than 22% of GDP.

 

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"There is a country out there where tens of millions
of white Christians, voting freely, selected as their
leader a black man of modest origin, the son
of a Muslim. There is a place on Earth - call it
America - where such a thing happens."
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GrandAdmiralJello 
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
 Registered: Nov '00
44644_Imperial Laurels
Date Posted: 8/9/07 3:11pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
Mmm.

I might have misread a parallelism then. I could have sworn there was a big chunk of the GDP being used, but in light of evidence I'll just say I'm wrong.

Thanks.

 

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SPQR
Vates Jυλιαδις
Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius
Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes;
pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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GrandAdmiralThrawn66 
Registered: Jun '02
6528_Thrawn
Date Posted: 8/9/07 5:27pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
MY point is the US army is WAYYY too large to be considered an army just used for defense. And thats wrong! We do not need a large army. We shouldnt be in other countries-period!!!! thats my point. I dont care if the USA is number one, I care about the principles of this country. Give me your tired, poor-not lets have the government jump to the corporate step... stupid.

 
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