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Author	Topic: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
DarthBoba Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 8/15/07 6:03am Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities - Date Edited: 8/15/07 6:12am (1 edits total) Edited By: DarthBoba
	Ahem. We reached our recruiting goal this month, and the US army was actually overstrength by 11,000 men. The 'recruiting crisis' is media silliness. http://www4.army.mil/ocpa/read.php?story_id_key=5624 http://www.comw.org/pda/0701br20.html Bottom line: the situation the Romans faced is not equivalent to our current one. The Germanic tribes were an actual direct threat to Rome; the insurgency in Iraq is not. Terrorists have shown that sticking around for a long-term, decisive series of engagements is not something they can do. They took their best shot to date on 9/11-and what did it accomplish? In the long term, virtually nothing. US forces in Saudi Arabia are still there, Israel is still there, there so far has not been a massive Pan-Islamic uprising against "Western oppression"..they haven't accomplished a thing. -----signature----- Bantam-Spectra To Release Glove Of Darth Vader, Jedi Academy Trilogy, and Darksaber in special limited-edition 'Dark Hand Of Mediocrity' box set
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GrandAdmiralThrawn66 Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 8/15/07 6:36am Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	See the article on cnn (cant get cnn at work....funny) about the employment of illegal immigrants into the armed services for citizenship?????????
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Jediflyer Registered: Dec '01	Date Posted: 8/15/07 7:34am Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	Ahem. We reached our recruiting goal this month, and the US army was actually overstrength by 11,000 men. The 'recruiting crisis' is media silliness. Then is the army going to stop borrowing airman and putting rifles in there hands for convoy duty? How long is your deployments now in Iraq? -----signature----- As long as the differences and diversities of mankind exist, democracy must allow for compromise, for accommodation, and for the recognition of differences. -Eugene McCarthy There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
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DarthBoba Registered: Jun '00	Date Posted: 8/15/07 8:45am Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	lol, considering the airmen was a stopgap thing MULTIPLE YEARS ago, that's not really a point. As for the longer deployments, that's deliberate and not completely necessary; it's designed to eventually push time between deployments to two years, instead of the year it is now. -----signature----- Bantam-Spectra To Release Glove Of Darth Vader, Jedi Academy Trilogy, and Darksaber in special limited-edition 'Dark Hand Of Mediocrity' box set
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DarthMatter Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 10/2/07 10:05am Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	It's very typical reading this thread, with all the dithering and denials from pro-Americans. The "empire" question was established long ago by a series of thinkers, and it has more to do with Economics and culture, and less about military and political issues. Yes, the current state of affairs is very similar to the fall of Rome - not in the particulars, but in the symbolism. Arguing with that is rather pointless and naive. The interesting point here is that so many people, despite all of the sound evidence mounted against the US remaining top dog for very much longer, still resist the truth and assert dominance - or at least, continue their business as usual. Again, that is symbolic of the citizenry of Rome at the end. For at least a decade, I've been among those reading, what was sometimes very avant guarde journalism, thinking that the US was a "nation in decline", an empire that will fall. The idea wasn't new, as Gore Vidal popularized decades ago. You could mention such things in polite conversation and be laughed out of the room as a quack...but no more! One difference in the particulars with us and Rome is that the average citizen probably knows more about how the sausage is made (and it ain't pretty). A growing number of people are now supporting what they would have denied until quite recently. It took 9/11, wholesale outsourcing, a botched occupation of Iraq, a second fraudulent election of Bush, a new series of scandals, illegal wiretapping and torture, a new national debt, and more recently, a slow bursting of the real estate bubble (something some of us saw coming years ago, again, despite the denials). This empire will definitely and inevitably "fall" - it is falling as we speak - and has been for around 5 years or so. It is not an "event", but probably a 20-year process that Bush has helped to accelerate, among other things, by putting the Iraq War on the credit card. What it looks like toward the end is up to us. So, I'm seeing that, while some vocal people still dither and deny, a significant number of Americans are no longer blind to how the nation has been hollowed out. I wonder, though: What will it take for all of us to wake up and do something about it? Where is the public outcry? Where are the alternative parties being formed? Where are the boycotts of the few stakeholders controlling our media? What about impeachment? Why are we accepting the status quo? Why are we still basically accepting what Power spoon-feeds us, instead of speaking Truth to that Power and changing the corrupt system? I grew up thinking the American Ideals were something worth fighting for, so I often ask pro-Americans why are we allowing this to happen without a fight?? Maybe much of this "fall" is too late to change, but why are so many Americans either denying it or pretending it doesn't affect them? I've been watching "The War" on PBS, and it seems such stark a difference between what people thought then - about what was the right thing to do, and to be united in doing it, to sacrifice in order to achieve it - and what we seem to think now - a mass denial of obvious problems, with fallacious assertions that we can't "fall" because we're America, and a refusal to sacrifice our "spoiled" lifestyles. Our "fall", at least to a much more humbled nation is inevitable, but it seems as though we won't even be putting up a fuss about it, even if the fall is much worse than that. "It's not my problem", most people seem to say as they continue to put gas in their SUVs. "We can't be conquered", they tell themselves as they buy imported junk from the chain stores. "We're the greatest nation on Earth", they assert, lulled by the mainstream media and comfortable lives into a continuation of our collective "dogmatic slumber". What happened to "America"? -----signature----- "It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions as a Democracy."
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Sauntaero Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 10/2/07 1:23pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	I agree that the US is resembling Rome in its later years, not necessarily in its military conquests but in "how the nation has been hollowed out." Rome had a lot of problems during its collapse, which are still being argued over, but probably which would include overreaching its military capacity (and most of the citizens slacking out of service!), the continual warring pushing the empire further into debt and raising inflation even more.... These are synonyms for the situation in the US. But at the same time, the plebs were dissatisfied with their bread and circuses, and started seeing the situation for what it is. Once an empire, any empire, stretches itself too far, it's not that it can't stretch further, but that in doing so it neglects things closer to home. The example I would use is the collapse of the I-94 bridge in Minneapolis this summer. We suddenly found out that our infrastructure is not only aging, but known to be dangerous, and nothing is being done about it. The amount of money that it would cost to repair the US transportation grid is astronomical--where could the money come from, even to fix bridges so urban life can keep moving? If the US keeps moving forward at the pace it is, it won't for long. And then there won't be any way to rebuild even the domestic infrastructure. But there are just as many arguments that the US isn't in danger of decline, and as long as it doesn't affect the everyday life of John Doe, he really doesn't care enough to change things. A standard of comfort + lasting security = apathy and stasis. Stasis = decline. It may not happen overnight, but the US won't be the top dog, defender of freedom, forever. And are Americans ready to deal with that? -----signature----- work in progress.
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Mr44 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 10/2/07 1:45pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	So then, the danger is actually hyperbole? -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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EmperorAugustus Registered: Apr '07	Date Posted: 10/2/07 3:04pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	I do so many similarities between Rome and America. However, while others seem to be comparing America to the end of the Roman Empire, I have a different viewpoint. I see present situation in America resembling the end of the Roman Republic and the birth of the Empire. Let's look at some similarities: Both the Roman Republic and the U.S. came to be when an oppressed people overthrew a tyrannical king. For Rome, it was Tarquin the Proud. For America, the British monarchy. In response to their bad experiences with monarchy, both set up republics and created systems that sought to keep too much power out of the hands of one person. Both started out as small "city-states", however eventually annexed incredible amounts of territory under their control, while still maintain a "republican" and "democratic" form of government. As the years passed, the people became lethargic when it came to taking an active role in government and maintaining the freedom they had fought so hard for. *Since the people nor the politicians no longer cared as much, corruption took hold and both became slow and ineffecient, with the little progress that was made overshadowed by excessive bickering and quarreling between the senators/congressmen. So I'm not that worried about America "falling" as Rome did. But I must wonder, will another clever figure like Caesar Augustus come along and slowly accumulate absolute power in our indifferent society? Would someone like that be able to gain so much control that they would become an Emperor in all but name and turn America into a de facto monarchy? Or is "history repeats itself" simply an antiquated notion in the modern world?
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Princess_Tina Registered: May '01	Date Posted: 10/2/07 4:33pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	I don't think modern nation-states can "fall" the way an old-fashioned sprawling Empire could. Maybe they become less hegemonic. Look at Spain, England, and France. At various points between the 17th and 19th centuries, they were at one stage or another considered a powerful Empire. Today they are not seen as Empires but are nonetheless modern democracies with relatively high standards of living and modern infrastructure. Some might even argue that the true "fall" of the U.S. might come when it is no longer the most influential country on the planet, and it remains to be seen whether the European Union as a group of nations can someday rival American influence abroad. In some very small regards, they can influence things that the American government won't, like fining Microsoft. At this point the biggest concern would have to be the lack of internal savings in the U.S. and the relative weakness of the U.S. dollar compared to the Euro and the Canadian dollar. It's possible the weakness will be temporary, but the U.S. cannot forever rely on borrowing from abroad while at the same time being a big importer of goods from other countries.
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 10/2/07 9:15pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	Rome had a lot of problems during its collapse, which are still being argued over, but probably which would include overreaching its military capacity How? The last real conquests of the Empire were in 117, under Trajan and they were immediately abandoned by Hadrian. Before then, the last conquests were Dacia in 107--statistically insignificant. You'd have a point if you considered Claudius's British campaign in the 60s as a waste of resources, but I'd hardly call it overreaching if the Empire was humming along smoothly for the next five centuries. continual warring pushing the empire further into debt and raising inflation even more.... What continued warring? Do you have any examples? This sort of idea tends to come from a pop culture inspired misconception at the same time, the plebs were dissatisfied with their bread and circuses The plebs? Certainly not. After the end of the Julio-Claudian dynasty in the first century of the Empire, everyone from the Emperor on down was a bloody pleb. Once an empire, any empire, stretches itself too far, it's not that it can't stretch further, but that in doing so it neglects things closer to home. Do you know how well-maintained Italia was? The only neglect came after the conversion of the state religion to Christianity under Theodosius "the Great". Then it became government policy to neglect civic responsibilities, because such thinking was "pagan" and obviously evil. Public service and public works were as deeply ingrained into the Roman psyche as baseball is in the American. In fact, it was the late Empire that featured an official called the defensor civitatis. This Defender of Cities (or civilization/state) was essentially a roving patron of the arts and public works guy--his job was to visit every city in the Empire, jot down a list of what was broken or what elements of civilization were lacking and then provide funds in order for them to be immediately constructed. In this way, libraries, roads, aqueducts, and other elements of sophisticated urban life sprang up all over the place. It's extremely erroneous to see the Roman Empire as this centralized state controlling everything. While the power was centralized in the person of the emperor, the actual mechanism of government--the imperial bureaucracy and the Roman Senate--was around continually and actually managing most of the mundane business of maintaining the empire. That did not involve oppression or repression, but rather, making sure that the integral parts of the Empire--the ancient city--stayed in great shape. The Empire was like a giant federation of highly prosperous cities. Even in the late 400s AD--just before the Roman Empire "fell"--the cities that made up the Empire were doing extremely well. The standard of living was tremendous. Roma herself had nearly 4 million people at that time, while large cities like Alexandria and Antioch had over a million each. Even the then-new Constantinople had 400,000 people living there. No crumbling state could support such a civilization. No, the Empire was rather like a watermelon. Once you get passed the hard shell of the frontier legions, there's nothing but succulent fruit for an invader to enjoy. The occasional "seeds" of a city militia might prove troublesome, but they were no more than a minor annoyance. The Empire was not a coercive power like one might think. There were no legions stationed in cities. The people were overwhelmingly free and happy. Also, I'm surprised I'm saying this, but Tina speaks sense about the US. Read her post, it's more or less correct. The US won't fall. She may be surpassed economically (debateable, given resources and productivity etc) but there will be no collapse into the dark ages. Worst come to worst, some foreign nation would "buy out" the US because she's too darn profitable a place. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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jamesdrax Registered: Aug '00	Date Posted: 10/3/07 1:45am Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	When the United States is living in an age of debt being converted into fiat money to finance its military ventures, bank bailouts and general social programs, it seems like a very bleak future for its economy. The fragility of this debt-based economy can only lead to its eventual destruction from within. -----signature----- "Your views are as narrow as your tie." - Bernard Herrmann
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DarthMatter Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 10/3/07 10:55pm Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	Thanks everyone. I know these ideas may sound cynical, but hey, cynicism is the new realism Sauntaero, a small quibble: Since the facts we face are not really in dispute, there are no valid arguments I've heard supporting America's continued "hegemony". There are plenty of assertations, but they're essentially ideological, not factual. My point was that even these assertations are starting to wear thin with John Doe. He cares now, and that's a good thing, but he's mystified as to what to do, if anything. All he ever hears is "go buy something". Tina, I agree, but wouldn't want to lose the emphasis of what "fall" can mean. As Dooku said, "twice the pride, double the fall". This is how I see American Pride and the inevitable slow down. That slow down will slow everyone else down, too, but the world's other economies will recover faster than we can (that pride thing, again), and they will effecively go around us toward a new prosperity independent of us, while we are still floundering. Compared to how high we've been flying, that's falling pretty far, but I do see a "dark age" possible, Jello. What's more, it doesn't have to be a bad thing. What I was taught to call the "Dark Ages" in grade school I've better learned was a very rich history, more accurately called The Medieval Period. jamesdrax, I also agree with you, and that idea of "fragility" is important. We live in a house of cards. The deniers (and "deciders") see that house of cards and say "See, it's a house and it's standing up just fine!! Don't listen to these gloom-n-doomers!". They point to the past, when the house was made of stone, but meanwhile, any gentle brush against a small edge of a card and it all comes down. I suppose the only reason we're still standing somewhat strong is because we're still buying junk. -----signature----- "It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions as a Democracy."
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o__O Registered: Sep '07	Date Posted: 10/4/07 12:04am Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	Ki_Undi_Mundi posted: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities No <3
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GrandAdmiralJello Title: Emperor • EUC • JCC Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 10/4/07 2:18am Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	Rich in events, perhaps, but very troubling for humanity. The ancient world was infinitely more vibrant, bright, and vital than the medieval. -----signature----- SPQR Vates Jυλιαδις Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque - Ennius Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento; hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos - Virgil
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DarthMatter Registered: Jul '04	Date Posted: 10/4/07 9:06am Subject: RE: Rome and America: Can you see the similarities
	GrandAdmiralJello posted: [The Medieval Period was] rich in events, perhaps, but very troubling for humanity. Really? Troubling? How so? GrandAdmiralJello posted: The ancient world was infinitely more vibrant, bright, and vital than the medieval. Not if you were a slave. -----signature----- "It is clear to me now that the Republic no longer functions as a Democracy."
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