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Topic:
Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
8/12/07 2:36pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Depends on what part of his point you are considering. The question about simply submitting to social norms of morality is very compelling, and ties into questions of human nature and the civil state. His ideas about attitudes towards history and key figures therein, however, is a weakness - we learn more, IMO, from historical trends than historical outliers, so his idea of dialogue with other "transcendent" individuals (and focusing on their greatest achievements) ends up ignoring a lot of important background detail (e.g., how these "giants of history" got to that status).
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
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Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
8/13/07 1:53am
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Oh, I agree entirely. Thankfully, we have a more complete and modern view that lets us see how the general trend of history influences great men. Sometimes this school of thought goes too far: to the extent that these great men were merely shaped by circumstances and could simply do nothing else in their position. They were swept in by events and controlled by them, according to that school.
I prefer to take his salient points about great men and adapt them to a more complete historical discussion.
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Roma Æterna|SPQR  Imperium Sine Fine "Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque" -Ennius, Annales "Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento;hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos" -Virgil, Aeneid
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Kudzu
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
8/18/07 5:06pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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I like to reference Kurt Vonnegut's note on nihilism:
"Well done, Mr. Krebbs, well done."
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Super Golden Ewok™ Recipient  It should be the right of every American to go out and get wasted the day they're told that they're being sent to war. Ron Paul for U.S. President 2008
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EnforcerSG
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
8/19/07 5:42am
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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This make much more sense in my head than typing it down, so please bear with me as I try to explain it.
I see nihilism and many religions to have a certain similar thought/assumption which to me makes no sense. That is that if there is no absolute reason to do something, then there is a problem. Either we shouldn't do it or there is then no reason at all to do something. I understand that for judging another person or applying some sort of moral standard this may be important. But just to live and do stuff, to have fun, to get through the day we don't need some magical/supernatural/divine reason for our actions. Subjective reasons work well enough for nearly all the things we do in life.
Nihilism, as first presented here as the idea that there is no proof or sufficient evidence of Truth or objectively absolute standards. What I don't get is the later steps that life suddenly is without any value. I agree that it is without any absolute or objective value, but that doesn't mean it has no value what so ever. That value is different from and to person to person, but my point only is that there can still be value in so much as there can be value.
It comes down to this; if you think that there is no objective absolute Truth then you need to stop thinking in those kinds of terms and move on to subjective standards. Instead of striving for the absolute answer to things we can strive for enough understanding to be able to get a good enough idea for whatever problem we are trying to answer.
Here is a question I have for nihilism to explain; we can still be happy. For as pessimistic as nihilism can be we can still find some joy and happiness. How does that work in a nihilistic framework? (**** that sounds like some sappy feel good sound bite, but it is a good question I think).
One more point; nihilism to me is just a belief; it is not a belief system like a religion. At its core it is just a belief that there is no objective Truth. Any conclusions drawn from that core belief is in general getting away from that core belief and is becoming whomever's personal beliefs system. For example, the conclusion that there must not be any divine power is not supported by nihilism; there could be a god and he/she/it just never got around (or couldn't) make any sort of magical Truth. So to conclude that is to go away from just the belief and turn it into whatever you personally believe. It is turning what is just a belief into a belief system; and that is basically a straw man.
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LadyElaine
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
10/24/07 9:39am
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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I'm so glad I found my way back to the forums here!
I think nihilism is a good place to start. The universe has no inherent meaning. Life has no inherent meaning. So what now?
Now I decide what the universe means to me, and what I feel is my place in it. I decide for myself what meaning to find within my life, my family, and my community. I decide where to base my moral values--which, for me, is with my family. My husband and daughter are the most important part of my life--they are my life--and therefore they come before everything else.
The commentary that Christianity is nihilistic is fascinating. I'd never thought of it exactly like that, but I can definitely understand it. (Probably a lot of "recovering Christians" can.)
Thanks for posting this!
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It's only science fiction until someone does it.
--Robert Frisbee, NASA JPL
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
10/24/07 10:50am
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Here is a question I have for nihilism to explain; we can still be happy. For as pessimistic as nihilism can be we can still find some joy and happiness. How does that work in a nihilistic framework?
I'm not sure Nihilism itself has an answer to that question -- seeing as how meaningless nihilism would take this to be -- but I think Nietzche's philosophy does.
From what I gather, Neitzche believed that Nihilism was a step, and a necessary one, for one to become "transcendant". Not in any mythical Godly way, but to just overcome what has become normal weaknesses that people often inherit from thier society.
I'm not sure if Nietzche wished to hasten Nihilism's departure... I think he advocated over coming it to take as long as it took... but that it was something to be overcome. However, I think he also regarded it with more respect in terms of a challenge than ordinary "slave morality" religion, which as he said found value in people for what they were not, and what they refrained from doing, rather than what they were and what they did.
Mind you he also gave large respect to the creators themselves of such a religious system for creating something that appealed so much more broadly than the "master morality" of elites. Just not respect to those who actually followed it.
Back to your question, Nietzche does mentino something in terms of the "Ubermensch" in the importance of joy, and having that as one of the goals of the Ubermensch. Of finding value in yourself and also in others and if I'm not mistaken, uplifting others to the same awareness. Those who have such potential anyway, and would not get perpetually lost in either slave morality or nihilism.
Part of the difficulty here ends up being twofold with people's assumption about Nietzche: first, a sort of knee-jerk reaction to his mental instability near the end of his life, which results in some giving him this sort of Lovecraftian boogeyman status of the man who thought too much and asked too many questions than his mind could bear. Yeah, whatever.
The second is getting taken in by how the Nazis hijacked his message. This poses even more difficulties because not only did the Nazis promote him, but his own sister promoted him within the Nazi party and claimed they were a living embodiment of what Nietzche spoke of. Nietzche himself wanted nothing to do with the Nazis and by every indication I know of thought they were just a new "slave morality". He particuarly criticized thier (and I think, his friend Wagner's) penchant for anti-Semitism, saying that although the Jewish tradition created the first "slave morality", it proved superior for those Jews that created it, so it made little sense to hold them in any more, if not less disdain than Christians who imported ideas that were not thier own.
Still, this doesn't earn Nietzche a lot of friends among the Jewish community, becuase even if it says the Nazis are funadmentally wrong and that oppressing the Jews is senseless, it's still not a particuarly compassionate reasoning towards them. It just happens to be less compassionate towards the Nazis.
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What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
Shall we set out upon this sea of faces
In search of more and more and more?
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DarthPoppy
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
10/24/07 1:26pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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I think when exploring and debating Nihilism it is important to get into the origin of the word. It did not come from Nietzche or any of the German philosphers, but rather from Russian literature. The term was coined by the novelist Ivan Turgenev in the novel Fathers and Sons and was used (with some irony, I may add) to describe the character and philosphy of Bazarov, a fictional representation of the "new man of the 1860s" (the "sons" of the title) who rejected the European liberalism of the "men of the 40s" (the "fathers" of the title) after becoming dissillusioned by the failed European revolutions of 1848. The origins of this tradition are actually somewhat unique to late Tsarist Russia. Another great literary investigation of Nihilism (roughly contemporary with Nietzche) can be found in Fyodor Dostoeyevski's novel The Possessed (sometimes translated as The Devils. In most of these Russian accounts the word is used ironically and pajoritively. At the time, the people being labeled "nihilists" by their critics would not have embraced that name; they called themselves (mostly) socialists and anarchists and their main concern was the destruction of the old, corrupt order of Russian society and believed in quite a lot of Utopian philosophy. However, they were often much clearer in what they were against than what they were for, hence reactionaries were able with great success to label them "nihilists" and destructive. It is no coincidence that the Soviet Revolution came out of movement that Tsarist reactionaries labelled "nihilist".
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SaberGiiett7
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
10/26/07 2:13pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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LadyElaine posted:
I'm so glad I found my way back to the forums here!
I think nihilism is a good place to start. The universe has no inherent meaning. Life has no inherent meaning. So what now?
Now I decide what the universe means to me, and what I feel is my place in it. I decide for myself what meaning to find within my life, my family, and my community. I decide where to base my moral values--which, for me, is with my family. My husband and daughter are the most important part of my life--they are my life--and therefore they come before everything else.
The commentary that Christianity is nihilistic is fascinating. I'd never thought of it exactly like that, but I can definitely understand it. (Probably a lot of "recovering Christians" can.)
Thanks for posting this!
Nietzsche said as much. The 'first' nihilism is Christianity, because, by its very nature, it relegates the importance of this world to nothing more than a test that is to be endured and anxiously awaited to end.
Solution 1: Atheism. If it seems too good to be true, it probably is.
The 'second' nihilism is the more conventional. Without a deification of purpose, life has effectively no purpose whatsoever. There are no values, life is finite, and our very existence is absurd.
Solution 2: Existentialism. Meaning is subjective and to be discerned individually.
Has anyone read Elizam Escobar's essay on the subject? It is a fresh perspective on nihilism, albeit a Marxist one. He concludes that the solution to the 'second' nihilism is the ultimate emergence of a classless society.
<[-]> Saber
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"It's all right. It's OK. There's something to live for! Jesus told me so!"
"Right or wrong, the main criterion is what you do and not what you say."
The American Revolution has been betrayed.
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Atlas1946
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
12/29/07 1:14am
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Life has a purpose. Everything has a purpose. We are all here for a purpose. If there is no purpose, we would not exist.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
12/29/07 2:26am
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Atlas, what is it that requires there to be a purpose? I don't see any reason why existance has purpose as a requirement.
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Atlas1946
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
12/29/07 2:33am
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Because that's life. I don't believe in nihilism, because I am a Christian. And probably you aren't, if I assume, since no one would say that life has no purpose, why are we even here in the first place? It's just not logical, to say the least.
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
12/29/07 5:51pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Atlas1946 posted:
...since no one would say that life has no purpose, why are we even here in the first place? It's just not logical, to say the least.
No, it's illogical to say that life has a purpose when no purpose is apparent, when there is no proof to support that claim. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that life doesn't have a purpose, I find it unlikely, but not impossible. There's merely no apparent purpose, and until anyone can prove otherwise, it's illogical to assume that there is a purpose behind life.
And your question regarding why we are here has already been answered several times in this thread. That question is essentially: "What is the purpose of life?" it's just worded differently.
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Atlas1946
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
12/29/07 6:07pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Don't argue with me here, Ron. And how dare you come to me about proof. Life has purpose. Deal with it.
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
12/29/07 6:08pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Solid reasoning there Atlas.
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Atlas1946
Registered:
Dec '07
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Date Posted:
12/29/07 6:10pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Likewise. That's life, we came to this earth for a purpose. I'm not God, so don't ask me what that purpose is.
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