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Topic:
Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 12:28pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Atlas1946 posted:
No. There is purpose, we just don't know what it is. Like I said, I'm not God, so don't ask me. It's there.
I find your stance interesting, and I am open to finding truth in your belief, but it does raise a few questions in my mind.
How do you reconcile the concept of free will with the idea that everything happens according to God's Will?
Is it best to live one's life according to some unknown (and perhaps unknowable) purpose, or to create purpose and meaning in one's own life?
Is a purpose that is determined and controlled by some outside entity really a personally meaningful purpose? For example, a marionette has a purpose, but I would hardly call it meaningful one, at least in from the puppet's viewpoint.
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Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 12:39pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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OWM, you know that's beyond the scope of this thread. We all can only try our best.
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Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
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Peter Shoomaker
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SaberGiiett7
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
12/31/07 7:59pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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I think we need to mark a distinction between the two types of nihilism: active and passive. The former having a positive denotation, whereas the later has a negative one. It is within oneself that the answer is found how to relate to a nihilistic world.
The passive nihilist decides to face life with cowed uncertainty, as a travail that is only slightly preferable to suicide. The active nihilist is the 'supra-man.' He turns the table on his situation through sheer will and his creative faculties, embracing life despite ultimately being doomed.
Whereas the active nihilist is powerful, the passive nihilist is impotent, a slave to a self-willed meaningless existence. The active nihilist, creates meaning where there isn't any on a subjective level. This is very important. Albert Camus did a lot to develop this thinking.
Nihilism to does not ipso facto lead to purposelessness and despair. If an individual arrives at the conclusion of nihilism, they have a choice to make between three options: suicide, passive nihilism or active nihilism. I find the last to be the most tasteful.
Here's a question: Is atheism synonymous with nihilism or are they two separate concepts? If they are separate concepts, why?
<[-]> Saber
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"It's all right. It's OK. There's something to live for! Jesus told me so!"
"Right or wrong, the main criterion is what you do and not what you say."
The American Revolution has been betrayed.
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
1/1 12:41am
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
- Date Edited:
1/1 12:43am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master_Ron
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SaberGiiett7 posted:
Here's a question: Is atheism synonymous with nihilism or are they two separate concepts? If they are separate concepts, why?
Personally, I would say so. I think main focus of the two is a bit different; Nihilism is somewhat centered around the question of existence and its purpose (or lack thereof) whereas Atheism is centered more around divinity (or the lack thereof). The thing is, both derive their answers based on the same reasoning, lack of apparent purpose/divinity, and not enough evidence to support the idea of a purpose/divinity. That being said, the Atheist/Nihilist would agree with each other's main ideas if they followed the same logic.
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Isai is too good,
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
1/1 1:10am
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Where does fatalism come into play, and what relationship does it have with these concepts?
One thing that really frustrates me is my father's fatalism. He is very religious, but whenever it is clear that his political party have done something wrong his main response is that the other side isn't any different and because they are all the same he should stick for his side, right or wrong. Personally I don't think this kind of view is really what religious faith is all about, but I do think there is a tendency no matter what you believe God is or isn't, to think you don't have control over anything so just sit back and do nothing. One of my other huge pet peeves was when people would respond to the quesiton: "Will you go to church this Sunday?" by saying: "If God wills it." Part of it was just cultural, a saying the Spanish inherited from the Moors I believe, but I think religious fatalism seems to have a lot in common with athiest nihilists. Both are just willing to sit back and not do anything, even in the face of abject evil or wrongdoing.
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
Awesome
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
1/1 1:29am
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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I agree with Espy. That's one of my biggest criticisms of the "we'll never know the purpose of life (though there certainly is one), so we should just sit back and let God do his thing" point of view. It seems to me that the entire point of religion (though perhaps not explicitly organized religion) is transformation (social and otherwise), and the idea of doing nothing while God does whatever it wants seems completely contradictory to that. I think it's been turned (like so many other things) into an excuse to ignore the problems in the world while living a comfortable, sterile life and doing absolutely nothing to solve those problems, even though that should be the first goal of any religion.
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"When you see me, what do you see?
I see a big bushy beard and hair."
- Stephen Colbert discussing his inabilit to "see" race, with Cornel West
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Darklighter24
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
1/1 1:31pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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I agree that religious fatalism is at odds with the purpose of religion (if one defines religion as an appreciation of the mystery of life or something along those lines) and the practical application of religious institutions to facilitate individual and social transformation based on certain sets of beliefs. Perhaps the fatalistic strain often sadly found in religion is vestige of the use of religion by those in power to subdue possibly rebellious subjects through the invocation of a final higher power.
Today this fatalistic attitude is often used as justification for taking no action because presumably nobody can influence the end product. However, perhaps the adherents of modern religious fatalism rely on it not merely out of laziness but out of emotional insecurity. While many may be materially "comfortable" their higher level needs for self-esteem and social status have not met. Thus they use religious institutions as ways of improving self-esteem and gaining social status. If one looks at Maslow's hierarchy of needs then it is reasonable to consider the idea that until these needs are met people will not focus on the higher order needs for fulfillment through helping others and making a mark on society.
This view positions religious fatalism as a sort of nihilism for those who still believe in a higher power.
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
1/2 11:31pm
Subject:
RE: Forget atheism. Let's talk about nihilism.
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Espaldapalabras posted:
Where does fatalism come into play, and what relationship does it have with these concepts?
I think fatalism, or lack thereof, is the difference between the active, Nietzschean nihilism described upthread and the more passive kind.
Personally, I think it's partially cultural and partially an issue of individual temperament. If you want to be a fatalist, you can find justification in either a theist or atheist paradigm. Either it's God's will, and out of your control, or life is hopeless and meaningless, so what's the point of action?
Conversely, you can find strength and liberation on either side, too. I think it's just people looking for intellectual and spiritual justification for their pre-existing temperamental biases.
Espaldapalabras posted:
One of my other huge pet peeves was when people would respond to the quesiton: "Will you go to church this Sunday?" by saying: "If God wills it." Part of it was just cultural, a saying the Spanish inherited from the Moors I believe
Inshallah, I believe.
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