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Topic:
September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 2:57pm
Subject:
September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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Howdy all.
I obviously don't need to give you any background to 9/11, and I don't really think we need to post gratutious American flags or roses on this day; if you do feel the need, there's a thread in YJCC for it.
Instead I want to draw our attentions to what the end result from 9/11 was - the policy shifts that followed. It's been a huge motivator for shifting the policy apparatus of governments as well as shifting public perceptions and leading America into what could easily be described as a moderate mistake in the Middle East.
Undoubtedly, and in fact certainly, there will be heavy criticism laid at the US Government under President Bush, the neoconservative architects of the US' disasterous foreign policy priority shift, the wars fought since that date, and indeed the American people for supporting it - but if that can be contained to a reasoned criticism and not an explosion of rage, I'd appreciate it.
If we look at some of the immediate effects of 11 September 2001, we get:
* The war in Afghanistan
* The war in Iraq
* The increased awareness of the violent Islamic fundamentalist movement
* The awareness of "siloing" of information and a lack of communication between government agencies
* Stronger reiterated ties between America's two key allies, Britain and Australia
* Tightened counter-intelligence methods to detect, track and disrupt terrorist networks in-country
* Tightened counter-intelligence methods to detect, track and disrupt terrorist networks in the USA
* Awareness of the instablity in key areas that are susceptible to violent Islamic fundamentalist influence (North Africa, southern Middle East, Cebu region of the Philippines, Southern Thailand, Indonesia etc)
* Rapid upscale in US defence capacity including increased spending, advancement of technologies and a revaluation of the means of achieving US force projection
* The introduction of torture and other extreme interrogation techniques (and as a subset the practise of extraordinary rendition)
* The detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba
Now all I've done done is list some of the things that governments did different after 9/11, focusing mainly on the US because most of you are Americans.
I haven't levied criticisms for two reasons - firstly, we know it and will undoubtedly get to it, but secondly - I've listed policy goals and some means of achievment. Evaluation will undoubtedly follow.
In it's agenda of fighting a war against terrorism, what would you guys rate as the successes and failures of both the Administration, it's international allies, and the world as a whole?
E_S
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anidanami124
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 4:06pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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First post I will go with some of these.
* The war in Afghanistan Odd thing about this is you don't hear much about what is going on there any more. I would really like to know more about how things are gong there. Which does brign up the thing with Iarq that if the US does pull out there will then pull out of Afghanistan to? Becuase really that country needs the US and the allies there so as they don't go back to the way they were per-9/11.
* The increased awareness of the violent Islamic fundamentalist movement You know this is really true. I would have thought the first time the WTC was bombed it would have woke people up to that. Heck you would have thought that first time they ever did anything like that it would have woke people up. But nope it takes two bulidings coming down to do that.
* The awareness of "siloing" of information and a lack of communication between government agencies I still don't see them doing well with that
* Tightened counter-intelligence methods to detect, track and disrupt terrorist networks in-country
* Tightened counter-intelligence methods to detect, track and disrupt terrorist networks in the USA I have not really seen this get better.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 4:09pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
- Date Edited:
9/12/07 4:40am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
G-FETT
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From my perspective, post 9/11 was a golden opportunity for the west and middle east to reach out to one another and come to a greater understanding. It was a time when America had the sympathy of every right-minded person. Off the back of this terrible atrocity, perhaps Bush could have gone to Isreal and Palastine and brokered a peace deal between the two? Maybe he could have developed a truely global coalition to bring the Taliban to justice, like the kind we saw during the first Gulf War? Perhaps the UN could have been stregnthened? And maybe there could have been greater understanding for reason's apparently sane young men want to kill themselves and murder thousands off the back of an ideology built on hate?
Instead, the US followed another path. A path of unilateral invasions. Of bombs. Of Shock and Awe. Of flouting international law. Of waging illegal wars on dubious and false intelligence. Of occupations that can only ever end in defeat. Of locking people away in Guantanimo Bay, without trial - How ironic for a nation that was founded on the principle's of law and freedom. And in so doing, has weakened its case for global intervention against Islamic Militants. Has left Iran emboldened. The rest of the world now views the US as a busted flush and the Bush administration as a failed regime.
The greatest tragedy of everything thats happened, post September 11th, is that the US administration squandered the legacy of global support they recieved in aftermath of the downfall of the Twin Towers. A legacy that really could have changed the world for the better and ensured that those who died, didn't die in vein.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 5:01pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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I think I would unequivocally agree with this:
GFETT posted:
The greatest tragedy of everything thats happened, post September 11th, is that the US administration squandered the legacy of global support they recieved in aftermath of the downfall of the Twin Towers
I think people do forget that in the climate of popular anti-Americanism - a bandwagon with room for all, it seems - September 11 delivered a huge amount of goodwill to the laps of the American government from the world as a whole.
E_S
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Darth_Guy
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 5:09pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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But was the goodwill genuine or a mix of sympathy (perhaps a measure anti-American but with no desire to see people die) and "Oh ****, they're gonna be pissed, let's make nice" and just another bandwagon? I don't really have a position either way, since the answer would have been clear were it not for Iraq.
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Raven
Title:
SFF: Books and Comics Mangler
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 5:19pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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Ender_Sai posted:
* Stronger reiterated ties between America's two key allies, Britain and Australia
E_S
Which is itself an interesting post 9/11 statement, in what it omits. Before 9/11, I would have said that Canada and the UK were America's key allies. Not a slight to Australia, but I would have called them no more key than say, Japan. Post Iraq invasion, the ties between the US and Canada have cooled, and the US has made a new best friend.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 5:52pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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Actually Australia held that role pre-Iraq, Raven, but post-9/11.
E_S
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Darth Mischievous
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 6:41pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
- Date Edited:
9/11/07 6:41pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Mischievous
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That ill will doesn't seem to have been very long lived in certain corners with vitriolic anti-American politicians being replaced with more friendly leaders in places like France and Germany. Like was stated, it was really more of a sympathy bandwagon rather than a reflection of strong friendship ties.
What is most distrurbing from my vantage point are Americans like Kucinich who go to places like Syria and take that time to berate his own country in the presence of hostile regimes... or these Hollywood types that foster such ill will by making propaganda films like 'Redacted' and other such tripe...
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 7:22pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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It wasn't just a sympathy bandwagon but thanks for cheapening it with your own misunderstanding. 
E_S
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Darth Mischievous
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 7:33pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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Ender_Sai posted:
It wasn't just a sympathy bandwagon but thanks for cheapening it with your own misunderstanding.
E_S
You can get sympathy from others who are not really your friends, as is the case in regular interpersonal relationships. The sympathy expressed doesn't indicate a changing of friendship status (or political relations) simply because of recognition of suffering a tragedy.
Nations that were honest friends before would remain such without resorting to vicious anti-American rhetoric, even with policy disagreements post-9/11.
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Raven
Title:
SFF: Books and Comics Mangler
Registered:
Oct '98
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 8:11pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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Darth Mischievous posted:
Nations that were honest friends before would remain such without resorting to vicious anti-American rhetoric, even with policy disagreements post-9/11.
Even in nations that as a whole respect America, there will always be those who don't like it, and at times when the majority is unhappy with America is allows the fringe who hates America to be more noticable.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 8:17pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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What he said.
Due respect DM, you're not really what I'd call an objective observer of the intentions of other states, and so I wonder if you're not allowing some of that subjectivity to creep in here?
You forget it was the ham-fisted approach to Iraq war which escalated anti-Americanism to the mainstream.
E_S
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Darth Mischievous
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 8:43pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
- Date Edited:
9/11/07 8:47pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Mischievous
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The sympathy expressed was sincere in most cases (although I think certain parties inherently thought that we deserved it or that it was good for us). It's part of the normal sympathy train that goes on whenever something tragic on the world stage occurs. The same happens on a smaller level with personal tragedies that get play on world news. People express sympathy, give aid, and so on. However, it doesn't inherently change your attitude towards that nation or make you friends.
World opinion is fickle.
You can tell who your friends are when they are able to help you through difficult times or give sensible advice without the vitiriol, even when mistakes are made.
The trouble is that foreign relations are more entanglements than friendships in most cases.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 8:52pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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Ah, "vitriol", one of those emotive adjectives designed to influence a person's mind.
Tell me DM, what's your experience with foreign alliances at the working level?
E_
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Obi-Zahn Kenobi
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 8:58pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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Ender_Sai posted:
Ah, "vitriol", one of those emotive adjectives designed to influence a person's mind.
Tell me DM, what's your experience with foreign alliances at the working level?
E_
If that's not baiting I don't know what is. 
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
9/11/07 9:00pm
Subject:
RE: September 11th - a broad retrospective on the response to that day
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I think some of this outpouring of international goodwill was also due to the many foreign countries that embraced the tragedy as their own. Quite a few nations lost citizens in the collapse of the towers.
New York is a global city, not just an American city, so the suicide attack hit absolutely everyone close to home.
To me, 9/11 is the moment when fear and paranoia became the cultural and political coins of the realm, driving out all other legal tender.
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