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Topic:
So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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beezel26
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
9/18/07 6:52pm
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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im there in all but visa,
trust me if you could give me a visa today I would fly thirty hours right back without hesitation.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
9/18/07 7:13pm
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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beezel26 posted:
let me tell you how much it sucks to have to work for a company and get a measly two weeks off after working for over two years. Two weeks is nothing. You dont get time to yourself.
Trust me you are still way to young to see the benefits to getting time off. its not just about being recharged but spending time with you family. it really grinds a person down alot.
As I'd mentioned, firstly, I was talking the context of what LAW should allow. I never said people shouldn't have vacations, just that I disagree with the law requiring it.
Second, as I also mentioned, I've seen that effect. The most time my dad had off of work in a row in.. 2005 I think it was, was 4 days. And thats because he took a thursday and friday off to have surgery.
It meant that my family's longest trip growing up was one year, where our family vacation was 5 days long, and the normal family vacation was 3 days, because it'd either involve leaving Friday night, or a holiday on monday.
Its not as though I'm unaware of it all.
beezel26 posted:
Please ignore him, South Australia was founded by free people not orthodox religious folks. Well a few but Adelaide people were free.
but some of australia was founded by convicts.
but the better parts were founded by free people.
I thought Victoria started off as no convicts as well...
Anyway, I've only been to three states and Canberra, but I've been noting the prisoner-based places seem to have been better. Sydney's quite possibly my favourite city in general and Tasmania is beautiful.
SA and WA are my next round of trips, though.
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
9/18/07 8:06pm
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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I think it's a bit more complicated than simply looking at countries individually.
Americans who take overseas assignments can usually enjoy a huge boost in living standards, especially when going to countries with relatively lower costs of living (we're assuming they're making as much as they would in the US, and they enjoy a huge exemption on their income tax).
I can't remember what the exact figure is, but if you make less than about $70-80k, then you don't pay income tax while working overseas. (I think that's close to the actual figure, I'd have to check that it hasn't changed).
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
9/18/07 9:48pm
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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It's $80,000, or it was back in 2005. You can also subtract foreign housing costs up to a certain level, so more than likely that figure would be a couple of thousand more.
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malkieD2
Title: EuroMod™-JCC - FFUK-RSA Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
9/20/07 10:14am
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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beezel26 posted:
let me tell you how much it sucks to have to work for a company and get a measly two weeks off after working for over two years. Two weeks is nothing. You dont get time to yourself.
You signed the contract accepting those vacation conditions. One of the biggest things about your employment contract is that it is totally open to negotiation. Obviously your employer will offer you the lowest deal they think they can get away with, but you need to fight your corner before accepting a contract. They'll either offer you want you want if they really want to employ you, or let you walk away if they don't value you that much.
I've never accepted the first offer I've been given at any job - otherwise they'll think you are a mug and not reward you. However, it's important to remember that if you demand above an average package you need to deliver above average productivity.
Companies will claim to have "company wide policies" on things such as vacation days, but that's only to see if you'll fall at the first hurdle when you fight back. I get 26 days plus national holidays (which I think is a 12 further days), minimum 12% bonus rather than 8%, 12% pension rather than 4%, 90days notice rather than 30 etc etc etc.
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Dark Lady Mara
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
9/22/07 11:38pm
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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In semi-skilled and unskilled jobs, though, employees have little to no negotiating power because companies regard them as expendable. That's why it's important for the law to require that employers make certain basic concessions to employees in terms of wage and benefits. For white collar workers, it doesn't matter quite as much, but for people who earn minimum wage and do back-breaking work every day, it's essential. They're probably the ones who need vacation time the most, too.
Also, from a pragmatic standpoint, workers are more productive when employers care about their morale. Things like decent vacation packages for all employees pay for themselves over time.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 12:54am
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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Well, if they did, then its an argument to make to the employer so that they change how they treat employees. A case I've made regarding Six Flags parks, at least, and how they treat their employees and that they'd do better if the employees were happier.
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malkieD2
Title: EuroMod™-JCC - FFUK-RSA Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 3:30am
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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Dark Lady Mara posted:
That's why it's important for the law to require that employers make certain basic concessions to employees in terms of wage and benefits.
no no no no no no no! Absolutely no with a cherry on top. The bottomline is that people will accept what they think they are worth - the government has no business telling an employer what he can and cannot offer as wages/vacation packages etc.
This is becoming of critical importance in the UK, where small business employers are getting stuffed because they have to offer female employees 6 months full pay maternity leave packages, and can't subsequently afford to pay a replacement to cover their work. As a result they avoid employing females incase they fall pregnant, thus resulting in sexual discrimination in the workplace.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 4:13am
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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The bottomline is that people will accept what they think they are worth - the government has no business telling an employer what he can and cannot offer as wages/vacation packages etc
no no no no no. In an unskilled labor market there IS NO LIBERTY OF CONTRACT when there is a surplus of labor. What people "think" they are worth is meaningless, the only thing that determines what they are actually worth is the demand for their labor in a market. This is simple economics. When there is 1000 people and 1 job, then it really doesn't matter what the 1000 people think they are worth, what determines the price the employer pays is the least amount 1 person out of a thousand will take. If there are no other jobs, then that person, whether he thinks he is getting paid the fair value of his labor or not, will be paid only more than the opportunity cost of doing something else, which in this case is 0. So in an extreme situation such as the great depression, anyone that can get a job, any job, will take it because getting paid something, no matter if it is even enough to live on, is better than the only other thing you could be doing, sitting around making nothing.
You clearly have skills that are rare and unique, which gives you the ability to negotiate a contract. You have the freedom to create a contract, one that can be said to have rough parity between the two parties. You are also in the top 5% of world wage earners and thus have no business imposing your ability to negotiate a contract as an example to the rest of the world.
You can always argue that socialism has gone too far, but the free market already failed, and in any democracy the government has every right to take from those that benefit most from the system to placate those that loose out. You might not like it, but if we lived in a pure laissez-faire system, we would live in it very long because the workers would revolt and take everything. The rich like you might wish for a libertarian day where they didn't have to pay for the inequalities created by capitalism, only reap the rewards, but that is something for the majority to decide.
The rich think they made everything they have. Well no matter how hard you work, your wealth is never just the product of your own two hands unless you live on an island. You benefit from living in a society where there is a social system that fosters an environment where you can use your skills and investments to create more wealth. If it wasn't for society, ie the other humans around you who agree to live together and share common resources, then nobody could be rich.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 5:21am
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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Espaldapalabras posted:
You clearly have skills that are rare and unique, which gives you the ability to negotiate a contract. You have the freedom to create a contract, one that can be said to have rough parity between the two parties. You are also in the top 5% of world wage earners and thus have no business imposing your ability to negotiate a contract as an example to the rest of the world.
Then why is it that in poorer countries, you find far more merchants who are willing to negotiate prices? Isn't that the same thing as negotiating an employment contract at a fundamental level?
After all, the merchant has a concept of how much an item that they have is worth to them, considering what it cost them to acquire it and transport it to their store. How is that any different than me deciding what my time is worth when negotiating with my employer?
The thing that you are forgetting is that when people decide what they are worth, it is not done in isolation. There is no absolute value that is used by someone. It's all relative. They don't say "I am worth $x per year/hour." They say "He offers me $x per year/hour. Is having the free use of my time worth more to me than that?" Another expression of that is whether or not they think they could get more money for their time someplace else.
However, people also have to be realistic about the value of what they are selling. If I were an apple vendor in a marketplace full of apple vendors, and I chose to price my apples far above what my competitors do, I am saying that keeping my apples is worth more to me than the amount of money others are willing to pay for them. In that case, I am getting what I feel is of the most worth from the arrangement, namely my apples.
Of course, if there are so many apple vendors, and I want to charge higher prices for my produce, I need to give people a reason topay more for them. TANSTAAFL is a very real principle. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.
Kimball Kinnison
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beezel26
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 8:08am
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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actually workplace agreements work well. But as always in Malkies case Europe goes overboard with compensation and cant for the life of them figure out why their products cost so much.
Granted its not third world Ameica but at least lay back on some of your labour policies.
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malkieD2
Title: EuroMod™-JCC - FFUK-RSA Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 11:07am
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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In an unskilled labor market there IS NO LIBERTY OF CONTRACT when there is a surplus of labor.
Utter nonsense. It's only because people accept what they are worth - if they didn't then employers would have to offer more.
When there is 1000 people and 1 job, then it really doesn't matter what the 1000 people think they are worth, what determines the price the employer pays is the least amount 1 person out of a thousand will take.
That's the my point exactly. If there was only 1 job, but no-one took the job because the pay was too low then the employer is forced to up the money until it is deemed acceptable. If someone accepts the first offer then fool on them really.
You clearly have skills that are rare and unique, which gives you the ability to negotiate a contract
I somewhat disagree. I have a set of skills and abilities which I have learned and practiced for for about a decade now. The basis of those skills came from an education which is available to all. Absolutely nothing stopping anyone else attaining the exact same skill and experience set that I have. (other than their own gumption).
The rich like you
um what? sterotyping based on an assumption ? Care to comment on how rich I am? I ask because you have absolutely no idea, and your comment is entirely an assumption.
If it wasn't for society, ie the other humans around you who agree to live together and share common resources, then nobody could be rich.
We've been through this loop before, and never really went anywhere. There's nothing stopping anyone getting ahead in life. I wear shoes to go to work, and my shoes are likely made in a factory by unskilled cheaply paid employees. Without them I wouldn't have shoes to go to work in - I *do* see your point. However, there's nothing stopping anyone in the shoe factory achieving more, other than their own gumption.
The "rich" are so because they've got a bit of gumption, and are unwilling to settle for anything other than the best. The poor are that way because they lack the gumption, and expect everything to be handed to them on a plate. Ok, I appreciate I'm sterotyping now, but my point stands - no-one needs to be poor.
I've achieved what I have from nothing, and there's nothing stopping anyone else doing the same. (but really, I don't want to reenter that loop again).
===========================================
I return somewhat to the topic at hand. We do have trade unions which are the negotiating voice of the work force. However, the bottomline still remains that people will work for what they think that are worth. If no-one accepted minimum wage then employers would have to offer more. Simple as that.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 1:27pm
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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Malkie, I can make an assumption that you are rich because you speak English and have access to the internet. The little facts you have presented about yourself put you clearly in the catagory of rich in terms of global terms. You are an adult with some kind of education in a first world nation, which means you almost certainly make over $30k a year, so lets not pretend you aren't rich when compared to the rest of the world population.
Then why is it that in poorer countries, you find far more merchants who are willing to negotiate prices? Isn't that the same thing as negotiating an employment contract at a fundamental level?
Perhaps a real economist could answer this better than I could, but basically in poor countries the markets there is more price fluctuation between goods and services. In rich countries the merchant owns a much larger supply of goods, and does not have the time to negotiate individually the selling price, while in poor countries the small merchant has the time negotiate individual prices because in those type of markets there is a different price for locals and tourists. You go to the merchant who is selling food to the locals or a large department store in even poor countries and you find they don't negotiate prices much more than we do here. Basically what you are arguing KK is that the ability to negotiate the costs of production is the same as being able to negotiate the selling price.
A good example of this would be to say that Wal-Mart has a monopoly over all goods. It doesn't. What it does have is a near monopsony, which means that it has control over the price almost all large manufactures charge for the goods they sell to Wal-Mart. Because Wal-Mart is such a large market, they have the ability to dictate to the producers what price to charge, even when in some cases this will result in a loss for each unit sold at Wal-Mart, which the producer makes up for by selling the good for more at K-Mart. This is a side tangent we should probably discuss somewhere else since I know you will not believe that is what they do, but I use it to illustrate that there is a clear difference between negotiating a selling price of a good and negotiating the selling price of your labor.
That's the my point exactly. If there was only 1 job, but no-one took the job because the pay was too low then the employer is forced to up the money until it is deemed acceptable. If someone accepts the first offer then fool on them really.
But if they don't accept the first offer then there are 999 people behind them waiting to take anything, because anything is better than nothing, even if what they offer isn't even enough to subsist on.
I somewhat disagree. I have a set of skills and abilities which I have learned and practiced for for about a decade now. The basis of those skills came from an education which is available to all. Absolutely nothing stopping anyone else attaining the exact same skill and experience set that I have. (other than their own gumption).
You are blatantly ignorant of the situation the global poor face. I don't even know where to begin on the list of reasons why the global poor are stopped from attaining the exact same skill set and experience you have. What surprises me is that for all your education you don't realize that some people do not have your brain, and are quite frankly too stupid to do what you do, through no fault of their own. Intelligence is a bell-curve distribution, and it is unlikely that those born on the lowest quartile have the capacity to perform the same mental functions you consider simple. Yes education plays a part, but access to education is not universal, and the quality of education varies widely. I know because I have been to schools in 5 different states. Even with good universal education, there would still be clear biological differences in intelligence.
The "rich" are so because they've got a bit of gumption, and are unwilling to settle for anything other than the best. The poor are that way because they lack the gumption, and expect everything to be handed to them on a plate
That might just be the most perverse thing I have ever read. Also every day Microcredit loans are proving just how wrong you are. If we are just to talk about the poor in the rich world, I would argue that many "poor" lack what you call gumption because they have been socially trained to believe that gumption does not get you anywhere. I would also say that the newest batch of immigrants to the United States have all the gumption they need, but it only gets them so far. It will take a few generations for their gumption to pay off because gumption alone cannot surpass the obstacles of not knowing the language well, having a substandard education (or none at all) and developing the access to capital funds to create large amounts of wealth.
There is no way anyone can make 60 billion dollars on the price of their labor alone. What they can do is develop a new idea or system to better organize the labor and resouces around them to create wealth, none of which would have been possible had there been no social framework to make it possible or legal system in place to protect the creation and the creator.
I return somewhat to the topic at hand. We do have trade unions which are the negotiating voice of the work force. However, the bottomline still remains that people will work for what they think that are worth. If no-one accepted minimum wage then employers would have to offer more. Simple as that.
True, and here in the United States almost nobody works for the minimum wage because the market price of unskilled labor in most markets is higher than $5.15. All I am really arguing for is for people to organize as a group to decide what they as a group will work for. Government labor protections in my view is just another way for workers to decide as a group what minimum standards all will be forced to follow. If the majority of the population decides that nobody should work in dangerous conditions, they have every right in a democracy to make sure those standards are enforced. So in this situation the 999 make sure the 1 guy cannot work for less than what they as a group decides they are worth, or need to live. Eventually the employer will have to meet their demands or they will let 1 guy work for less. But when there is such a large supply of labor, at the individual level no one individual has a choice to work for anything but what the employer determines. At the group level this changes and a liberty of contract can be said to exist.
Again, the people who made the shoes never had a chance to have the education you did. I would like you to visit some 3rd world countries and stay with the poor for a few years and then come back and tell me that they don't work as hard as you. When you make less than $1 a day, you have no choice but to work as hard as you possibly can, if you don't you will starve to death. (Oh, and the great part is that those without the gumption actually do!) Sort of works itself out I guess.
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 2:10pm
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted:
malkieD2 posted:
A political leader who can form complete sentences free from glaring grammatical errors
Just wanted to toss in that qualifier. As Bush might say, "He c'n talk, he jist cain't talk raht."
From. Connecticut.
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malkieD2
Title: EuroMod™-JCC - FFUK-RSA Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 2:41pm
Subject:
RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
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plenty of huff and puff, but no actual solid reasons for your claims.
I don't even know where to begin on the list of reasons why the global poor are stopped from attaining the exact same skill set and experience you have.
sorry, but that just sounds like a cop out. Nothing stopping anyone, anywhere getting ahead.
What surprises me is that for all your education you don't realize that some people do not have your brain, and are quite frankly too stupid to do what you do, through no fault of their own.
I have no brain. (but that isn't an invite to quote me on that in your sig  ). I'm not smart, or gift, I just graft hard to get the basics done. As is frequently pointed out on these boards my spelling is crap and my grammar, syntax etc is weak also.
Yes education plays a part, but access to education is not universal, and the quality of education varies widely
Education is available to all. I went to a particularly crap high school, but still managed to get grades and get into Uni.
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