Author Topic: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
LostOnHoth 
Registered: Feb '00
43871_Stormtrooper Loser
Date Posted: 1/28 2:05am Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
There might be an opportunity for me to move to Houston, Texas. Can anybody here give me some no BS advice on life as a Texan? (The only American people I have discussed Houston with are people who live there so need some objective views)

 

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Darth Mischievous 
Registered: Oct '99
40336_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 1/28 4:20am Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
LostOnHoth posted:
There might be an opportunity for me to move to Houston, Texas. Can anybody here give me some no BS advice on life as a Texan? (The only American people I have discussed Houston with are people who live there so need some objective views)


My best friend moved there for a few years on a job opportunity in Engineering, before getting a better offer back home here in the New Orleans area.

I've been there several times, but I can't really give advice on what it's like to live there. I will say that the commute times can be extremely long in the Houston area.

 

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Robimus 
Registered: Jul '07
40015_Kaleesh General
Date Posted: 1/28 10:43am Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
Mr44 posted:
Also because the 2 systems don't directly compare. You also have to take into account the US's dual federal/state division of power. Canada has state divisions as well, but the relationship isn't the same as the US.

For example, there's no federal requirement that says companies have to offer vacation at all, but quite a few states require employers to offer time off under state law. Minimum wage is another example. The federal government sets the basic rate, but many states require a minimum that is higher than the federal level.

Market forces usually dictate the rest. Even starter jobs offer benefits within reason. A student who works fastfood only 12 hours a week to earn money after school isn't going to get 2 weeks of paid vacation and insurance, but a full time employee at the same place probably would.


Actually the Canadian labor laws are largely Provincial, as opposed to Federal. I didn't mean to make it sound otherwise. Also minimum wage in Canada is also set by the Province. As for our holiday time, it doesn't work out by weeks but by percentage. Legal requirement in Manitoba is 4% holiday pay or equivilant to two weeks. This goes up as you spend years with the company. If you work 12 hours a week you get 12 ours a week vacation pay.
Now if an Employer can't afford to offer 4% holiday pay what kind of Employer are they? It makes me think they really don't care much about their employees and their families. Prehaps the goverment should then step in like they do with the minimum wage. If a company is on the verge of collapse because they can't afford to give employees benefits/paid vacations then they simply are not running much of a business. I really believe that goverments do need to set minimum levels on these type of benefits for all people, then if you can negociate a better deal thats great. At least then the protection exists against companies taking advantage of their employees.

 

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Espaldapalabras 
Registered: Aug '05
46370_2008 Olympics
Date Posted: 1/28 4:27pm Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
LostOnHoth posted:
There might be an opportunity for me to move to Houston, Texas. Can anybody here give me some no BS advice on life as a Texan? (The only American people I have discussed Houston with are people who live there so need some objective views)


Well I lived in a city about 2 hours outside of Houston in high school. I actually know a lot of people that live there, but none I have stayed in touch with. There wasn't much to do there in my town, but sometimes we would go to Houston. It seems like a nice city, and 8 years ago had super low housing prices. I think a lot depends on where you live, but generally the people aren't too bad. It is hot and humid, but there really is a ton of stuff to do in that city. I still remember when I went to an art museum to see a Star Wars exhibit that had all sorts of stuff from the movies. It is a big city, I'm sure if you look hard enough you could find a good niche. Every time I've been there I've thought that it would be a pretty nice place to live.

 

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dizfactor 
Registered: Aug '02
6896_Obi-Wan<br>LEGO
Date Posted: 1/28 5:55pm Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
Dark Lady Mara posted:
In semi-skilled and unskilled jobs, though, employees have little to no negotiating power because companies regard them as expendable. That's why it's important for the law to require that employers make certain basic concessions to employees in terms of wage and benefits. For white collar workers, it doesn't matter quite as much, but for people who earn minimum wage and do back-breaking work every day, it's essential. They're probably the ones who need vacation time the most, too.


That's not really true. The top 20 percent of the US workforce in terms of compensation are twice as likely to work over 50 hours a week as the bottom 20 percent.

The counter-intuitive reality is that people at the bottom usually put in the shortest hours and actually get to take vacations. The higher up you go, the more employers tend to expect you to sacrifice everything else in your life for your job.

Let's say you work for Bank X. Basically, if you're jockeying the phone at the call center, you're easily replaceable so they don't mind you taking time off and you're not expected to bring your work home with you when you leave. You come in, you do your 8 hours, you go home, and no one bothers you. You schedule your vacation in advance, and its unlikely to be a problem.

If, however, you're working for the same bank, but as VP of Marketing or the project manager in charge of rolling out New Product XYZ, you are working like a galley slave. You're in the office working about 60 hours a week, you have meetings over lunch or you eat at your desk, you take work home, and when you go on vacation, you're on your CrackBerry fielding calls and e-mails. You tend to have a little more flexibility in terms of how you use your time, but you're always working or available for work, and your workload is well in excess of what you can accomplish in 40 hours.

Especially once you make the shift from hourly wages (which require overtime pay for hours worked in excess of 40/week), your employers lose any disincentive they might have for not piling it on. Also, your responsibilities tend to become more open-ended. At one level, employers say "We will pay you $10/hour to answer this phone." It's a very tightly-defined set of responsibilities, both in scope and duration. If it's not an incoming call on that line during those hours, it's not your problem.

At another level, they say "We will pay you $80K a year to oversee this project and make sure nothing goes wrong and make sure overall performace hits these benchmarks." You will need to do whatever is necessary to achieve those goals, regardless of how long it takes or when you're needed for work. If you can come in at 9 and leave at 5 and take weekends off, that's fabulous, but if the deadline for your project is coming or employee evaluations are due, and everything's not done, you don't just get to go home. You stay as long as it takes to finish whatever needs to be done.

Most people I know who are in senior white collar positions never entirely stop working. Ever. A software developer friend of mine had to leave the reception after the baptism of his first child for work. The day a friend of mine died unexpectedly a few months ago, we had to have someone take calls for the widow because people were blowing up her cell phone with questions, because her husband picked a really inconvenient time to die with regard to deadlines on some report or other. I'm not quite on that level yet, but I'm getting there, and I probably will be if the project that I'm currently in charge of actually works the way it's supposed to. I'm already taking pretty drastic hits to my free time and flexibility as it is.

Kimball_Kinnison posted:
Then why is it that in poorer countries, you find far more merchants who are willing to negotiate prices? Isn't that the same thing as negotiating an employment contract at a fundamental level?


Not really. Merchants in poorer countries are actually merchants, owning their own small-scale businesses, not having investors to answer to, handling most of the customer service issues themselves, directly. They can trust themselves to make a good deal, partially because they have the skill and partially because they have an incentive to make such a deal since it's their business. Moreover, they have the freedom to do as they please, since they're the sole proprietor.

"Merchants" in the developed world are actually generally retail sales operations. Direct customer contact is handled by low-skill service employees who have no incentive to protect the employer's bottom line. Prices often need to be standardized across multiple locations, and investors and tax collectors need to have transactions accounted for with regularity. For all those reasons, the person ringing you up at your local retail establishment simply doesn't have the authority (or the motivation) to haggle.

malkieD2 posted:
The "rich" are so because they've got a bit of gumption, and are unwilling to settle for anything other than the best. The poor are that way because they lack the gumption, and expect everything to be handed to them on a plate. Ok, I appreciate I'm sterotyping now, but my point stands - no-one needs to be poor.


There's an element of truth and an element of falsehood there.

The rich, generally, work very hard to stay rich and get richer. The age where the "idle rich" can just sit around sucking up money is long gone, if it ever truly existed. In general, the rich work as hard as the poor in the developed world. Depending on your definition of "rich," you could even make the argument that they work harder.

However, in general, the rich have had advantages that the poor don't have. The fundamentals of financial literacy seem to many people like common sense, or a moral issue, but it's really an issue of education - usually informal education passed on in the home and among peers. If you grow up with people who don't know how to handle money, you won't know how, either, not because you're stupid or of bad character, but because you simply do not have the skill set (and also because you don't always have a lot of good options).

Speaking of education, in the US especially, the level and quality of education available is heavily dependent on one's circumstances of birth, and education levels are arguably the single most important factor in earnings potential.

Also, if you are born into a relatively advantaged socioeconomic position, you have a better support network you can draw on for advice, support, and emergency assistance. The flipside of this is that when you're poor, when you start moving up, the people in your life start to draw on you more for support, which tends to drag you down. If you're born in a ghetto, you're more likely to have to drop out of college to care for your ailing grandparents than you are to be able to ask them for financial support, whereas the reverse is true for people who grow up in upper middle class homes.

If you really want to get into a thorny issue, there seems to be a link between IQ and economic achievement, and IQ seems to be heritable. What part of that heritability is genetic and which is environmental is up for debate, but one way or another children born to rich parents tend to be "smarter" (highly fraught term, there) than ones born to poor families.

The long and short of it is that if you're born into a relatively privileged position, you will have opportunities that other will not, and you will have the education and background and support systems in place to recognize those opportunities for what they are and take advantage of them.

All of this is, of course, talking solely about the developed world. It goes without saying that it is all but impossible for a child born in the Democratic Republic of the Congo to grow up to be wealthy regardless of how hard he or she works, because the Congo is totally and completely ******.

Lowbacca_1977 posted:
No such law for paid time off.
Which is something I personally agree with. If an employer offers that then fine but I don't think it should be forced, both in that I think its too much gov't involvement in the employer-employee relationship and I don't like the harm it would cause small businesses.


You could easily have an exception for small businesses.

I think mandated time off is a very good idea. When you give people more time off, you increase their net productivity, decrease the number of health problems (esp. stress-related health problems), plus intangibles like quality of life and all that. 20 paid vacation days per year should be the minimum.

 

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chibiangi 
Registered: Jun '02
7447_Han and Leia
Date Posted: 1/28 6:06pm Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
LostOnHoth posted:
There might be an opportunity for me to move to Houston, Texas. Can anybody here give me some no BS advice on life as a Texan? (The only American people I have discussed Houston with are people who live there so need some objective views)


I spent about a week there ages ago and couldn't wait to get home. I prefer dry weather. That place was dank.

 

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chibiangi 
Registered: Jun '02
7447_Han and Leia
Date Posted: 1/28 6:12pm Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
No such law for paid time off.
Which is something I personally agree with. If an employer offers that then fine but I don't think it should be forced, both in that I think its too much gov't involvement in the employer-employee relationship and I don't like the harm it would cause small businesses.


You're a student, right?

So, uhm, get back to me on that no paid off idea when you've spent 10 years breaking your back for the man and can't take a week off to take your kids to Disneyland or be with your wife when she has your baby.

No paid off is where this country is headed and it is wrong. Thank god I have a job where I can take leave.

 

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Lowbacca_1977 
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered: Jun '06
Date Posted: 1/28 8:38pm Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
chibiangi posted:
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
No such law for paid time off.
Which is something I personally agree with. If an employer offers that then fine but I don't think it should be forced, both in that I think its too much gov't involvement in the employer-employee relationship and I don't like the harm it would cause small businesses.

You're a student, right?
So, uhm, get back to me on that no paid off idea when you've spent 10 years breaking your back for the man and can't take a week off to take your kids to Disneyland or be with your wife when she has your baby.
No paid off is where this country is headed and it is wrong. Thank god I have a job where I can take leave.

Well, my view is certainly based off of my family. The longest time my dad has taken off at once in the last 10 years, I believe, was in 2005 when he didn't have work for 5 days. He missed Thursday of one week to have surgery, and was back to work by Tuesday of the next week.

Chibiangi, if you don't like that deal, DON'T take the job. I'm not saying that it should be ILLEGAL to have paid time off or something like that. I just don't think law should expect someone to pay for someone else's time off. ESPECIALLY for the damage it would do for companies that are fairly small and that could handle not having an employee for a week or two, but couldn't handle having to pay to not have an employee for that same amount of time.

 

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chibiangi 
Registered: Jun '02
7447_Han and Leia
Date Posted: 1/28 9:18pm Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
That story was sad. If I had to work 10 years without any leave, I'd shoot myself.

Small businesses usually have an "out" for things like health insurance and paid vacation. The reason why is because small businesses are just that--small. Walking away from a minimum wage job at the local mom n' pops is a bit different than walking away from a job that feeds your family. Those are the jobs I am talking about. We are not slaves. Paid time off is not some foreign, strange concept. It's something most of the Western world gets 5-6 weeks of without any questions asked. It is also something that is integral to a healthy, productive workforce. We have bought into this system where we should be thankful to have any job and frankly that is garbage. We work hard. We deserve to be paid a liveable wage, the ability to get sick and not come in to work, health care, and vacation time.

The idea that we don't deserve such "luxuries" is exactly why the standard of living in the US is not as high as other countries. It's no wonder someone who is not American made this statement:

[quote]I think mandated time off is a very good idea. When you give people more time off, you increase their net productivity, decrease the number of health problems (esp. stress-related health problems), plus intangibles like quality of life and all that. 20 paid vacation days per year should be the minimum.[/quote]

(Or at least I think dizfactor lives in Oz...)

 

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Espaldapalabras 
Registered: Aug '05
46370_2008 Olympics
Date Posted: 1/28 9:24pm Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
I first read the last page, and when I read Malkie's quote in diz's post, I knew I couldn't leave that unanswered, but luckily I checked to see what he said and was reminded that I already responded.

Diz, I think it really depends on what industry you are in, and what level you are at. For example, I know that at least before the lastest crisis, there are a lot of housing developers who really didn't need to work lots of hours in order to make a lot of money. I would also say that the upper middle class worker who is working 80 hours a week for 100k, aren't putting in less time than those making 100 million.

The other thing is it is hard to compare the "hard workingness" across white and blue collar jobs. I've worked in both, and I can sit at a computer far longer than I can stand on a production line.

 

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Robimus 
Registered: Jul '07
40015_Kaleesh General
Date Posted: 1/28 9:54pm Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
Espaldapalabras posted:


The other thing is it is hard to compare the "hard workingness" across white and blue collar jobs. I've worked in both, and I can sit at a computer far longer than I can stand on a production line.



This is a great point, going out and spending 8 hours slugging 40 pound cases of anything is vastly different than looking at a computer screen. The days I spend looking at a computer screen do drive me a bit crazy but I never go home exhausted and sore from the computer work.

 

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dizfactor 
Registered: Aug '02
6896_Obi-Wan<br>LEGO
Date Posted: 1/29 11:11am Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
Espaldapalabras posted:
Diz, I think it really depends on what industry you are in, and what level you are at. For example, I know that at least before the lastest crisis, there are a lot of housing developers who really didn't need to work lots of hours in order to make a lot of money. I would also say that the upper middle class worker who is working 80 hours a week for 100k, aren't putting in less time than those making 100 million.


No, but the one making millions is almost certainly taking more risk and/or doing something more innovative, and so I don't really have a problem with them making a ton of money.

Also, someone making $100K as an individual is not really rich (in a Western context) but is certainly not poor. The gap in standards of living between the upper middle class and the truly wealthy is not something crying out to be addressed.

Robimus posted:
Espaldapalabras posted:


The other thing is it is hard to compare the "hard workingness" across white and blue collar jobs. I've worked in both, and I can sit at a computer far longer than I can stand on a production line.



This is a great point, going out and spending 8 hours slugging 40 pound cases of anything is vastly different than looking at a computer screen. The days I spend looking at a computer screen do drive me a bit crazy but I never go home exhausted and sore from the computer work.


Really? I have. The back pain, neck pain, knee pain, etc from spending too long sitting staring at a screen can be excruciating, plus the stress headaches and all that.

It's worth pointing out that stress-related illnesses and conditions (both physical and psychological) are endemic in the white collar world, and are nontrivial.

There's also a question of levels and industries. Sitting at a computer terminal doing data entry for 8 hours can be grueling and can cause all sorts of physical and mental health problems, but you're right, it's not as taxing as working on an assembly line (though it's also not compensated nearly as well). However, that experience is not the same as an upper-level white collar job, where there's a lot more pressure and responsibility. Someone who's responsible for making sure all aspects of a major product rollout happen smoothly is not just "sitting at a computer all day" in the same way as a data entry clerk.

To put it another way: with manufacturing work and low-level office work, whether you go home in physical pain or not, you go home. Being always "on," always available, 24/7, spending more time at the office than you do at home, travelling a lot - all these things will absolutely wreck you over time.

I mean, I've worked in highly physical jobs before, but I don't think I've ever been so consistently exhausted and burned out as I have been at a few white collar jobs that I've had, including the one I'm in now. Moving heavy stuff from point A to point B for 40 hours a week can be exhausting, it can make you sore and tired, but in my experience, and this might be age-dependent, the downtime was more than enough time to recover. Spending 60-70 hours a week in perpetual crisis mode doing risk management and margin call enforcement for an online brokerage company during the height of the dotcom boom and the crash that followed was just on another level of stress and exhaustion and, yes, physical pain. When losing focus for a moment at the wrong time, or focusing on the wrong thing, or making the wrong call on any one of dozens of split-second judgement calls you might be called on to make, or just doing the math wrong, could cost tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in losses, just maintaining your attention as you "stare at the computer screen" is physically exhausting. And that job was a relatively low-level job dealing with small time chump change retail brokerage - serious traders dealing with serious money have a LOT more stress than I ever did. Even so, going back to moving boxes and furniture and fixtures would have been a friggin' vacation.

 

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Robimus 
Registered: Jul '07
40015_Kaleesh General
Date Posted: 1/29 12:51pm Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
dizfactor posted:
Spending 60-70 hours a week in perpetual crisis mode doing risk management and margin call enforcement for an online brokerage company during the height of the dotcom boom and the crash that followed was just on another level of stress and exhaustion and, yes, physical pain. When losing focus for a moment at the wrong time, or focusing on the wrong thing, or making the wrong call on any one of dozens of split-second judgement calls you might be called on to make, or just doing the math wrong, could cost tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars in losses, just maintaining your attention as you "stare at the computer screen" is physically exhausting.


I'm seperating the ideas of Stress and physical exhaustion. I actually prefer the physical labor for that reason, the stress of money type decisions is just as tough but your unlikely to ever throw out your back and have to go on disability for, well, the rest of your life.

Now some people like this "living to work" angle but I can't stand it. People should be working to live, not spending 80 hours a week working. What kind of life is that? I think there are deeper psychological issues at work with jobs like that. I wonder how many folks in those lines of work don't have mental breakdowns or stress leave in their careers?

 

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dizfactor 
Registered: Aug '02
6896_Obi-Wan<br>LEGO
Date Posted: 1/29 3:15pm Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
Robimus posted:
Now some people like this "living to work" angle but I can't stand it. People should be working to live, not spending 80 hours a week working. What kind of life is that?


I think that's kind of a complicated issue. A lot of people feel like they need to maintain the trappings of a certain lifestyle, which is a really dumb reason to work yourself to the point of exhaustion, but people do what they do. If you want to kill yourself for a life of dull misery in a generic suburb in some horrible McMansion, that's your issue, I guess.

For a lot of others, though, they would prefer a job which gives them a lot of responsibility and a high level of challenge to one that just pays the bills. If you're working yourself to the bone, at least at the end of the year, you can look back on what you did with some sort of sense of accomplishment. Part of this is that the higher up you go, the more often you will have some kind of equity stake in what you're working on, so the sense of personal investment is higher. It's one thing to slave away for someone else, it's another to bust your hump trying to launch a company with a bunch of your close colleagues.

There are also a lot of "work hard, play hard" types, which I completely respect and more or less try to do myself. I'd rather have less free time packed with tons of cool things to do (and the resources to make that happen) than more time with less to do, even if it can be really exhausting sometimes and taxing on body and mind. As the joke goes, Work, Sleep, Social Life: Please pick two.

Plus, if you're working at a very high level and you start to burn out, if you've done it right (i.e. avoided taking on massive amounts of debt), you can scale down a lot more easily than people slogging along at a lower-level job can scale up if they want more money or whatever.

Basically, I think it's very, very possible to do this sort of thing in an unhealthy way. In fact, I think most people who work like that veer into unhealthy territory at least some of the time. However, I don't think it's inherently a bad lifestyle choice. I think the keys to doing it well are avoiding debt, understanding the trade-offs you're making, being careful with diet, nutrition and exercise, and having a very good plan for childcare in place if you want to have children. Also, you need to be really assertive about forcing downtime into your schedule and maximizing use of your free time.

 

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Darth Mischievous 
Registered: Oct '99
40336_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 1/29 4:27pm Subject: RE: So dollar for dollar what country has the best standard of living and take home pay
dizfactor posted:
If you want to kill yourself for a life of dull misery in a generic suburb in some horrible McMansion, that's your issue, I guess.


To each his own, diz.

In some areas, like here, it really isn't feasible to live in the city... unless you're not adverse to risking life and limb to walk down the street in the middle of the day, not to mention the overpricing and overtaxation and corruption and terrible public schools and so on in Orleans parish.

I like living close enough to get downtown for the restaurant scene and so on, but far enough away to live in a safe and quiet neighborhood that is good to raise a family in. It will only take about 10 mintues to get to the French Quarter from where we're moving to.

We're actually in the planning stages of constructing a home, with a different design than we had before. The place we're building is gated, has rules and is custom housing, with variable square footages, from minimum 2,500 sq. ft. to over 6,000 sq. ft. homes. No rubber stamp or spec houses there. It's the perfect time for us, as the interest rates have dropped substantially...

 

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