| Author |
Topic:
Polygamy
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
4/18 6:27am
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
- Date Edited:
4/18 6:31am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
king_alvarez
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CmdrMitthrawnuruodo posted:
By giving the government the right to say what you can practice and what you cant practice is a violation of our constitutional rights. Now I can understand if that practice commits a crime, but honestly does having more than one spouse really be called a crime?
If polygamy is not harmful to people or to society in general, then I don't really have a problem with legalizing it. But the legalization of it would have to be strictly on those grounds, not based solely on the fact that some people consider it essential to their personal spirituality.
Edit:
KK, your most recent post reflected exactly what I was formulating in my mind, including the definition of crime and the example of human sacrifice, except probably better worded than what I would have said, which is in fact why I didn't say it and elected for a short, brief response.
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Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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CmdrMitthrawnuruodo
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
4/18 6:44am
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
- Date Edited:
4/18 6:45am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
CmdrMitthrawnuruodo
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Kimball_Kinnison posted:
Strictly speaking, having more than one spouse is a crime, because what is or is not a crime is defined by the criminal code in the relevant jurisdiction.
Only because some lawmaker made it a crime way back. Before than it wasn't a crime and still should not be considered a crime.
Kimball_Kinnison posted:
However, you set the wrong standard for whether or not a religious practice should be prohibited by law. That standard should not be based on whether or not it is an essential part of a religion. It should be based solely on whether or not that act infringes upon the rights of another person.
Crime or infringement of rights otherwise leave it alone.
Kimball_Kinnison posted:
For example, you could argue that human sacrifice is an essential part of your new religion, but that doesn't mean that the government should sanction it. Human sacrifice would be a violation of another person's rights. On the other hand, polygamy isn't an essential part of Islam (although it is allowed under it, and is practiced in some Islamic countries), but it does not violate the rights of others.
Funny how polygamy isn't violating the rights of others in other religions so why was it outlawed here? Because of the "sexual abuse" that is stereotypically associated with it because of the multiple spouses and scores of children born from it? Polygamous families are no more sexually/physically abusive than monogamous families.
Kimball_Kinnison posted:
And please note that polygamy itself doesn't violate anyone's rights. It is only the other actions that are often associated with polygamy (such as the brainwashing of young children or the statutory rapes or the allegations of spousal abuse) that commit those violations. Nothing about the concept of polygamy (in and of itself) violates anyone's rights any more than a monogamous marriage violates anyone's rights. You can find the exact same violations of others' rights in monogamous marriages, even if they seem more common in polygamous ones.
Then outlaw monogamous marriage if that is the reason why polygamy is outlawed. Otherwise, make it legal and make sure that those who do practice polygamy do not violate the legal age law (which needs to be reduced to 16 IMO but thats another issue for another thread).
Kimball_Kinnison posted:
(such as the brainwashing of young children or the statutory rapes or the allegations of spousal abuse)
In large religious sects like the one in Texas they brainwash their followers, but as for the allegations of rape and spousal abuse... well isn't that the unanswered big question thats going around with that case right now eh? Anyway in small polygamous families that isn't commonly found. They are pretty much just like monogamous families, just with more than one spouse and a dozen or so children.
There is nothing wrong with polygamy, just the people who practice it wrongly.
I still stand by that outlawing polygamy is unconstitutional. Especially if its outlawed because of the actions of the individuals who practice it, the same actions that are committed by monogamous practitioners. Hypocrisy anyone?
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"Dyin' be the day worth livin' for!" --Captain Hector Barbossa PotC: Amuletum Angiti http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3635826/1/ http://s12.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=48046
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
4/18 6:58am
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
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CmdrMitthrawnuruodo posted:
Only because some lawmaker made it a crime way back. Before than it wasn't a crime and still should not be considered a crime.
That's like saying that before there was a law against murder, it wasn't a crime.
Whether or not something is a crime is defined by the law. Polygamy is not a crime in some areas (such as some Islamic countries). It is a crime in others (such as in the United States). That is a simple fact.
CmdrMitthrawnuruodo posted:
Crime or infringement of rights otherwise leave it alone.
You keep focusing on the word "crime". Defining something as a crime is almost completely arbitrary, depending on where you are. For example, it is a crime to carry a handgun (concealed or otherwise) in Washington DC, and yet less than a mile away it is perfectly legal to carry a gun in the open in Virginia. There is no universal standard for what constitutes a crime.
CmdrMitthrawnuruodo posted:
Funny how polygamy isn't violating the rights of others in other religions so why was it outlawed here? Because of the "sexual abuse" that is stereotypically associated with it because of the multiple spouses and scores of children born from it? Polygamous families are no more sexually/physically abusive than monogamous families.
Actually it was outlawed because at the time the majority of the population, including those in power over all three branches of government, considered it one of the two great moral scourges. (The other one was slavery.) It was made illegal by a vote of the majority of the representatives of the citizens of the United states and with the agreement of the President of the US. It was then upheld by the Supreme Court as being constitutional.
That is why it is illegal. Again, that is a simple set of historical facts.
CmdrMitthrawnuruodo posted:
Then outlaw monogamous marriage if that is the reason why polygamy is outlawed. Otherwise, make it legal and make sure that those who do practice polygamy do not violate the legal age law (which needs to be reduced to 16 IMO but thats another issue for another thread).
Calm down there, cowboy! Did you not read my earlier post? I have no problem with polygamy being legal, and have said so many times, even though I would likely not participate in it. I agree that the reasoning given by the Supreme Court is constitutionally suspect, but it is still the law of the land until it is overturned.
I'm simply pointing out facts and giving my analysis. There's no need to get so worked up over it.
CmdrMitthrawnuruodo posted:
In large religious sects like the one in Texas they brainwash their followers, but as for the allegations of rape and spousal abuse... well isn't that the unanswered big question thats going around with that case right now eh? Anyway in small polygamous families that isn't commonly found. They are pretty much just like monogamous families, just with more than one spouse and a dozen or so children.
There is nothing wrong with polygamy, just the people who practice it wrongly.
I still stand by that outlawing polygamy is unconstitutional. Especially if its outlawed because of the actions of the individuals who practice it, the same actions that are committed by monogamous practitioners. Hypocrisy anyone?
Did you not read what I wrote? I specifically said that those problems are not unique to polygamy, only that currently they seem more prevalent with polygamous relationships. That draws no conclusions about causation there.
So calm down and hold your horses.
Kimball Kinnison
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Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
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CmdrMitthrawnuruodo
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
4/18 7:06am
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
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Sorry, bad habit of mine. Tend to get passionate when I argue/debate/whatever.
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"Dyin' be the day worth livin' for!" --Captain Hector Barbossa PotC: Amuletum Angiti http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3635826/1/ http://s12.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=48046
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
4/18 2:04pm
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
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Interesting how when planned parenthood is willfully complicit in the statutory rape of similar aged girls by adult men there isn't the same outrage as when a bunch of religious freaks do it by much uglier adult men.
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We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
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beezel26
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
4/20 6:53am
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
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Kimball_Kinnison posted:
Honestly, the one thing about the whole polygamy debate that boggles my mind is this:
There are people who see no moral problem with someone having multiple sexual partners at the same time, even having kids with several partners at the same time. However, the moment that one person wants to marry two or more of those sexual partners, they have a moral problem with it. Some of these people are the same ones who in the past have argued that marriage is "just a piece of paper".
Personally, I see no problem with polygamy being legal, even though I doubt I would ever follow that pattern myself. Having been married before, and knowing how hard it can be to make one marriage succeed, I don't see any way that I would be able to handle two (or more) at once. I'd have to be insane.
Incidentally, back when my parents got married, my mom told my father that he could have all the wives he could handle, and she intended to be more than enough. Today, when they tell that story, my dad will often add that he might have one more than he can handle as it is.
Kimball Kinnison
Lets face it, most of the animal kingdom mate for a short period of time and go there separate ways. Its all instinct. Now you got guys with one girl. The guy might be able to brainwash her but lets face it. The ladies do most of the whipping. So if marriages succeed because the two souls cooperate with little or not brainwashing involved. How the hell do you expect one man to control say five wives without brainwashing. It just wouldnt work any other way. Cat fights all around and major headaches for the guy.
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
4/20 7:24am
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
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Are you saying that marriage can only work if one (or both) are "brainwashed." I don't necessarily disagree. Any contractual arrangement requires that we are socialized and accept the rules of our culture. That may well be the definition of brainwashing. What I see on wikipedia about brainwashing is this definition:
Brainwashing (also known as thought reform or as re-education) consists of any effort aimed at instilling certain attitudes and beliefs in a person — unwelcome beliefs in conflict with the person's prior beliefs and knowledge.
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beezel26
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
4/20 11:05am
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
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the single friends of married guys call it brainwashing.
The girls call it being whipped.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
4/20 1:48pm
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
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beezel26 posted:
Lets face it, most of the animal kingdom mate for a short period of time and go there separate ways. Its all instinct. Now you got guys with one girl. The guy might be able to brainwash her but lets face it. The ladies do most of the whipping. So if marriages succeed because the two souls cooperate with little or not brainwashing involved. How the hell do you expect one man to control say five wives without brainwashing. It just wouldnt work any other way. Cat fights all around and major headaches for the guy.
Well, there are species where its one male and several females as a group though. on that logic, marriage in general should be considered brainwashing because its not that typical.
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beezel26
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
4/20 3:28pm
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
beezel26 posted:
Lets face it, most of the animal kingdom mate for a short period of time and go there separate ways. Its all instinct. Now you got guys with one girl. The guy might be able to brainwash her but lets face it. The ladies do most of the whipping. So if marriages succeed because the two souls cooperate with little or not brainwashing involved. How the hell do you expect one man to control say five wives without brainwashing. It just wouldnt work any other way. Cat fights all around and major headaches for the guy.
Well, there are species where its one male and several females as a group though. on that logic, marriage in general should be considered brainwashing because its not that typical.
Do yourself a favor and dont tell any of the ladies in your life that.
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Living happily in South Australia. Goodaye Mate!
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_Darth_Brooks_
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
4/21 12:40pm
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
- Date Edited:
4/21 12:46pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
_Darth_Brooks_
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I find what's going on in Texas to the Eldorado community very disturbing. Very.
My thoughts and opinions on polygamy are incomplete, I admit,...I've just never really spent much time thinking about it in order to formulate my thoughts on the subject.
However, my thoughts admittedly being half-baked,...my sympathies are with the polygamist community which has experienced what is tantamount to an invasion and followed by the separation of families for the purposes of interrogation...and yet, to my knowledge, the anonymous young woman purported to have made the alleged plea for help has not been located.
There are more than 400 small children ripped from their parents and homes, being subjected to interrogation and DNA tests, and thus far this all appears to have been performed prior to any concrete proof of criminal activity.
Now, this is a poor analogy, but take a scenario involving a high school, we know that each year a certain number of teenage girls will become pregnant, a certain number of teachers will engage in relationships with the student body, a certain number of students will actively engage in underage drinking, and so forth...we know it's going to happen. In virtually any demographic these events are going to occur.
My very weak point here is, supposing this alleged 16 year old mother was actually, actively abused...would it be outside of what may reasonably expected from a demographic perspective for the size of the community? Should it justify taking an entire community captive?
I realize that I'm oversimplifying the issues, but the alleged phone call does seem to indicate that the members of the community have access to communication and arguably more calls could have come from the community if it's members considered themselves abused, or that since being taken into state custody the members of this community are now in a position to receive assistance...yet, the women do not appear to be seeking refuge, nor has even the young woman been located.
There are so many very disturbing aspects to the kidnapping of this community and within this issue...but the one of least concern to me, be it legal or no, is the issue of polygamy...
...but, admittedly, this is just my knee-jerk reaction.
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
4/21 12:53pm
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
- Date Edited:
4/21 1:02pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
king_alvarez
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_Darth_Brooks_ posted:
However, my thoughts admittedly being half-baked,...my sympathies are with the polygamist community which has experienced what is tantamount to an invasion and followed by the separation of families for the purposes of interrogation...and yet, to my knowledge, the anonymous young woman purported to have made the alleged plea for help has not been located.
If the entire evidence consisted solely of the one woman's allegation, then I would probably agree with you. However, that is not the case.
_Darth_Brooks_ posted:
There are more than 400 small children ripped from their parents and homes, being subjected to interrogation and DNA tests, and thus far this all appears to have been performed prior to any concrete proof of criminal activity.
This is the standard procedure for CPS cases.
_Darth_Brooks_ posted:
Now, this is a poor analogy, but take a scenario involving a high school, we know that each year a certain number of teenage girls will become pregnant, a certain number of teachers will engage in relationships with the student body, a certain number of students will actively engage in underage drinking, and so forth...we know it's going to happen. In virtually any demographic these events are going to occur.
The high school analogy isn't even close to describing the situation here.
_Darth_Brooks_ posted:
My very weak point here is, supposing this alleged 16 year old mother was actually, actively abused...would it be outside of what may reasonably expected from a demographic perspective for the size of the community? Should it justify taking an entire community captive?
Yes, if there is evidence that the entire community is a part of the abuse. Granted, this has not yet been proven in the case in Texas.
_Darth_Brooks_ posted:
There are so many very disturbing aspects to the kidnapping of this community and within this issue...but the one of least concern to me, be it legal or no, is the issue of polygamy...
...but, admittedly, this is just my knee-jerk reaction.
Yes, I agree that it is comletely a knee-jerk reaction. Once we have available to us, or at least an understanding of, the evidence that this was based on, then we can determine whether it the action was appropriate or not.
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Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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_Darth_Brooks_
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
4/29 11:32am
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
- Date Edited:
4/29 11:34am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
_Darth_Brooks_
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UPDATE:
I was surfing the net to see what sort of updates have been presented in the case, and came across this article.
ABC News
From another article;
"The raid itself was prompted by an anonymous call from someone identifying herself as a 16-year-old girl who was being held against her will and claimed to have been raped and abused by a 50-year-old registered sex offender named Dale Barlow. Yet, he is on probation in Arizona for a 2007 conviction for marrying and impregnating another 16-year-old girl. And the caller turns out to be Rozita Swinton,..."
"So, the chief suspect was known, in advance, not to be in the ranch compound. And the tipster is someone with a history of making false police charges..."
"Investigators "found disturbed bed linens and a strand of hair that appears to be from a female head." (Wow! They'd find plenty of this at my house, too.)
"12 of the kids have chicken pox. (12 out of more than 400).
"No one is sure whether the children have been immunized. (No one is sure if they haven't been, either.)
"Investigators say they have evidence of emotional, physical and sexual abuse of young children within the compound"
This is scary.
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I AM AN ACT OF GOD. If you doubt it ask my insurance agent.
Whom the Mod's would destroy they first drive mad.
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-RebelScum-
Registered:
Feb '04
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Date Posted:
5/5 5:54pm
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
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I am somewhat annoyed at the group being branded as 'the polygamist sect.' I think that their other actions should be what they are known for, yet a lot of people are only aware of them vaguely for their abuse but readily identify them as polygamists. Has anyone else noticed this, or am I just being cynical?
Scummy
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AnakinsGirl
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/5 8:52pm
Subject:
RE: Polygamy
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Can this topic also be about group marriages in general, or does this strictly have to be only about polygamist marriages? Meaning, the man has sex with each of his individual wives separately and the ladies do not have sex with one another. Ploygamist in the sense that there is only ONE man married to two or more women? Or can we discuss group marriages in which there could be more than one husband sharing more than one wife, in which the females engage in intercourse with one another and a husband together?
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