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Topic:
Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
1/2 6:20pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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But...I thought the whole reason to teach sex was to keep our children safe. If one method of teaching is better at that objective then there is no reason to teach it with an inferior method.
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Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
1/2 6:29pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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J-Rod posted:
But...I thought the whole reason to teach sex was to keep our children safe. If one method of teaching is better at that objective then there is no reason to teach it with an inferior method.
Wearing a seatbelt is an inferior method of preventing injuries due to car accidents than not riding in a car at all, but telling everyone not to ride in cars is not a solution and it certainly won't prevent more injuries than teaching people the importance of buckling up.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
1/2 6:43pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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Sexual morality may also change over a relatively short period of time. You can see it in children who at first find kissing girls disgusting, they then move on to find that kissing girls is sinful and then they discover alcohol, the internet, and opportunity and everything changes.
If they have the factual education then they will have a greater chance of managing that change with reduced risk of pregnancy and/or infection than without it.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
1/2 6:49pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
- Date Edited:
1/2 6:50pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
J-Rod
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I don't see where that addresses the point Flyer. Look, you guys were all over me because I was uncomfortable with sex being taught by public school teachers. Many of you were accusing me of putting our children at risk because I disagreed with the subject matter.
Now, I ask you, who is putting our children at risk because they are uncomfortable with the subject matter?
So I am forced to ask again, are you guys still of the opinion that the government is morally obligated to teach sex-ed due to the risks involved with not having information? Sex-ed with a moral componant is shown to have the best result in keeping our children safe. That, then, seems to be the course we must take to meet the supposed moral government obligations.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
1/2 6:55pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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It depends on the scope of the "moral component". I also don't necessarily believe that any particular program can be shown to be better than any other unless we look at long term results - how are we measuring the "best results" in terms of time frames?. As I posted above, morals may change over time.
I haven't come across the studies that you have quoted - are they in this thread somewhere?
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
1/2 6:56pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
- Date Edited:
1/2 6:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
J-Rod
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Yes, page 8 has them. They were submitted by Quix.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
1/2 7:11pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
- Date Edited:
1/2 7:13pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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I must admit I can't see the 'moral component' referenced in those reports. Are you talking about the abstinence component that is referenced? I thought you were talking about morals, ie, sex is bad, sex is immoral, sex will send you straight to hell.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
1/2 7:19pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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LostOnHoth posted:
I must admit I can't see the 'moral component' referenced in those reports. Are you talking about the abstinence component that is referenced? I thought you were talking about morals, ie, sex is bad, sex is immoral, sex will send you straight to hell.
I was refering to morals as in when where and why. So yes, abstinence could be the same thing.
It's a pile of reading, but it says in a couple of places about the effectiveness of the programs that have both abstinence and conventional sex-ed is higher.
Also notice that in the second report it says that there is not yet any hard numbers saying that any of these programs reduce pregnacies and STD's.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
1/2 7:29pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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On my reading of those reports there appears to be a component of abstinence and sex education and access to contraceptives in the sex ed programs. I can't see any particular references to data which suggests that "better results" are achieved by having an abstinence/sex education mix as opposed to just sex education only as you claim. The context of the reports appears to be whether sex education itself actually has any usefulness, which clearly it does.
I certainly can't see any reference to moral guidance on "when, where and why" as being a contributor to the success of the programs but I've read them without painstaking attention to detail so if there is some objective proof then please point it out.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
1/2 7:34pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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I'm at work, but I'll see if I can find them.
While I look, this is from the second link...
Few issues have so divided politicians, school boards, policymakers and the public as what to do about out-of-wedlock teenage pregnancy. Whether one believes that unmarried teenage mothers should be denied welfare benefits or provided with financial assistance and special case-management programs, preventing unintended births to adolescents is politically and socially appealing to everyone. But each time the issue arises, people voice the same questions: "Which interventions work?" "Which programs are the most effective in preventing unintended teenage pregnancies?" "How effective is each program?" "Given different levels of effectiveness and different costs, which programs will give the biggest bang for the buck?" "Should we invest in programs that promote abstinence, teach skills, provide contraceptives or give incentives, or should we cut benefits?" "What mix of possible strategies will be most productive?"
Scientific inquiry has not yet provided definitive answers to many of these questions.
So, clearly...nothing. 
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
1/2 7:37pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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LostOnHoth posted:
On my reading of those reports there appears to be a component of abstinence and sex education and access to contraceptives in the sex ed programs. I can't see any particular references to data which suggests that "better results" are achieved by having an abstinence/sex education mix as opposed to just sex education only as you claim. The context of the reports appears to be whether sex education itself actually has any usefulness, which clearly it does.
I certainly can't see any reference to moral guidance on "when, where and why" as being a contributor to the success of the programs but I've read them without painstaking attention to detail so if there is some objective proof then please point it out.
Yes, I was wondering the same thing. I went back and read the articles Quix posted, and they all seemed to support the idea that comprehensive sex education and access to contraception were the key elements that made the most effective programs work as well as they do. While it noted that some of those programs also had an element of abstinence-based education in addition to the real sex education, that doesn't seem to be the defining characteristic of what makes a program work.
J-Rod posted:
Yet you don't want to teach this subject in the manner that has been shown to protect them the best.
No, you don't want to teach this subject in the manner that has been shown to protect them the best.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
1/2 7:47pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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I just don't want my kids to be taught a program the sum of which is basically "Kids, don't have sex". That's not education. I'm all for "Kids, one way to avoid STDs and pregnancy is to avoid sex, but, if you do have sex, here's how to stay safe". That is education.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
1/2 8:11pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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I'm still looking. But I did manage to find this.
PIP: In Georgia, in the US, students who take part in a sex education program for eighth-graders called "Postponing Sexual Involvement" are 5-15 times less likely than their peers to start having sex in the ninth grade. In the US, 30% of babies born are born to unwed mothers, and 80% of the children born to unwed high-school dropouts grow up in poverty. This fact takes a great toll on the children and on society. The new sex education program began when its director, Dr. Marion Howard, realized that the traditional method of disseminating birth control information in sex education classes resulted in students acquiring a great deal of knowledge about contraception but not using it. She then noted the success of an antismoking program which used older teenagers as role models, and she learned that the young mothers wanted to know how to say no to sex without hurting a boyfriend's feelings. The new program, which reaches all eighth graders in Atlanta, begins with discussions of anatomy and contraception and then focuses on the risks of sexual activity, sexual pressures in society, and peer pressure. Older teenagers help the students discuss some of the "lines" that boys and girls use to pressure each other and help the students practice how to resist this pressure. Both the students and the teen counselors have benefitted from their involvement with this course.
*Emphasis mine.
Sound familiar?
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
1/2 8:25pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
- Date Edited:
1/2 8:28pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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PIP: In Georgia, in the US, students who take part in a sex education program for eighth-graders called "Postponing Sexual Involvement" are 5-15 times less likely than their peers to start having sex in the ninth grade. In the US, 30% of babies born are born to unwed mothers, and 80% of the children born to unwed high-school dropouts grow up in poverty. This fact takes a great toll on the children and on society. The new sex education program began when its director, Dr. Marion Howard, realized that the traditional method of disseminating birth control information in sex education classes resulted in students acquiring a great deal of knowledge about contraception but not using it. She then noted the success of an antismoking program which used older teenagers as role models, and she learned that the young mothers wanted to know how to say no to sex without hurting a boyfriend's feelings. The new program, which reaches all eighth graders in Atlanta, begins with discussions of anatomy and contraception and then focuses on the risks of sexual activity, sexual pressures in society, and peer pressure . Older teenagers help the students discuss some of the "lines" that boys and girls use to pressure each other and help the students practice how to resist this pressure. Both the students and the teen counselors have benefitted from their involvement with this course.
* My emphasis. Does this sound familiar as well?
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
1/2 8:30pm
Subject:
RE: Time to grow up - an end to the folly of abstinence only sex ed?
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J-Rod posted:
Both the students and the teen counselors have benefitted from their involvement with this course.
Any evidence for that claim on the part of the reporter? Any tangible results from the program? If there are, any way to figure out which results came from encouraging teens not to have sex and which came from the sex ed part?
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