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Topic:
Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
Awesome
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 11:37pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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Don't worry about if, Vivec. That's exactly why this thread was created. Because there are soo many misconceptions and things out there about this topic...it's important to establish a proper context of such things.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 11:42pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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I just always figured that the scheme made sense because in Star Wars Darth Vader, the imperialist bad guy had a red lightsaber, while the good guys Luke and Obi-Wan who fought on the side of the oppressed had blue lightsabers...
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 11:46pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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I don't think that is a very good explanation. It has more to do with the fact that the tradition of the United States is that of a neo-liberal country, so the conservatives are those that look back to laissez-faire economic systems that the country had a hundred years ago and also traditional social values.
Who is called "conservative" in a country varies greatly, the conservatives of Russia are the communists.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
9/23/07 11:46pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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What I found interesting is that conservative parties in other countries were named Democrats of some form, which is slightly confusing.
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
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Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 12:05am
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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Espaldapalabras posted:
I don't think that is a very good explanation. It has more to do with the fact that the tradition of the United States is that of a neo-liberal country, so the conservatives are those that look back to laissez-faire economic systems that the country had a hundred years ago and also traditional social values.
Who is called "conservative" in a country varies greatly, the conservatives of Russia are the communists.
What about the Tsarists? What would the Archduchess Romanov be?
And what are traditional social values? Are they the values of the American South? The American Northeast? Both regions are equally old, yet entirely at odds in terms of tradition. What about religion?
No, saying that "American conservatives" follow "American tradition" presupposes there is such a thing when there isn't. The US has always been a melting pot, even when everyone was a white protestant.
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Roma Æterna|SPQR  Imperium Sine Fine "Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque" -Ennius, Annales "Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento;hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos" -Virgil, Aeneid
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 12:13am
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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There is a difference between a conservative and a reactionary.
And while traditions might be different, they were in basic agreement over most moral issues. They had more in common than not.
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We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
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Registered:
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 12:18am
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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Yes, just as there is a difference between an animal and a mammal--one is merely a subset of another. 
All reactionaries are conservative, but all conservatives are not reactionary.
And while traditions might be different, they were in basic agreement over most moral issues.
Unsubstantiated fantasy. They had an entirely different world view--there was a reason that time period was so divisive and that any unity post-revolution was considered a pipe dream.
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Roma Æterna|SPQR Imperium Sine Fine "Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque" -Ennius, Annales "Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento;hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos" -Virgil, Aeneid
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 12:30am
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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GrandAdmiralJello posted:
Unsubstantiated fantasy. They had an entirely different world view--there was a reason that time period was so divisive and that any unity post-revolution was considered a pipe dream.
Wait, so when neocons talk about "American Values" as this singular, absolute morality that the liberals want to destroy, they're full of crap? Hmm.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 1:23am
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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GrandAdmiralJello posted:
Prenn: Utilitarianism is a belief system based on utility--i.e. how "good" an action is. So a utilitarian would do things that he believed maximized good--in the political sense, it refers to economic liberty as the mechanism of generating the most utility.
Not entirely true, Jello.
Utility is defined as any action which brings pleasure to the recipient.
Bentham identified two masters of human kind, pleasure and pain; "nature has placed mankind under the governance of two sovereign masters, pain and pleasure."
The rule of utility was that anything which provided the maximum pleasure to the maximum number of people was optimum.
Remember, at the time, a key area of political debate was over property rights and so using the rule of utility Bentham supported freedom in commerical endeavours because it was a form of utility.
E_S
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 1:29am
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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So essentially, Bentam was an unoriginal bum who intellectually sponged off of Epicurus? 
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 1:30am
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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I'm not sure Epicurus had the benefit of writing in such civilised times, but yes, the thinking goes back to Epicurus and could be suggested to be Dionysian.
E_S
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 1:40am
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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Heh Heh, Ender_Sai the Dionysian.
I guess that makes me a Jovian.
(also I'm completely going to ignore the insinuation that the 18th century was more civilized than the ancient world, because that's utterly ridiculous)
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 11:47am
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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GrandAdmiralJello posted:
Heh Heh, Ender_Sai the Dionysian.
I guess that makes me a Jovian.
(also I'm completely going to ignore the insinuation that the 18th century was more civilized than the ancient world, because that's utterly ridiculous)
Definitions please? 
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Rogue_Ten
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 2:24pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
- Date Edited:
9/24/07 2:27pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Rogue_Ten
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Dionysian refers to the followers of the Greek god Dionysus, god of wine and orgies, (his Roman counterpart being Bacchus).
Epicurus was a philosopher who believed in achieving the most happiness possible with the least pain possible. His philosophy is classified under materialism, which ignores the metaphysical and the theological, in favor of only those things tangible and involving matter (material).
Basically, he said that, as far as we know, nothing matters but what we can percieve, so do whatever makes you happy, as long as you can simultaneously avoid as much pain as possible.
By using the term "Jovian", Jello is referring to an archaic European moniker, (Jove), of the Roman king of the gods, who is more commonly known to the modern West as "Jupiter", (I guess "Jupiterian would be too awkward ). The Greek equivalent of Jupiter is Zeus, btw.
In identifying himself with the harsh ruler of the gods, Jello is referencing his known tendency to favor the paternalistic, authoritarian view in a situation.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 2:36pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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Thanks, Rogue
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