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Topic:
Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 3:11pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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Vivec, your signature's line about illegal immigration is ridiculously partisan and laughable in it's own right. Nobody could accuse me of racism but I support America getting a first world immigration system and nobody should ever tolerate illegal migration. 
Prenn, what else did you want to cover? I'm happy to go through other notions with you, if you want, given there's a whole bunch of misused terms in the media - calling Bush a neocon, confusing free trade and globalisation, confusing Nazism with socialism etc.
ES
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I_am_Banned
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 3:16pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
- Date Edited:
9/24/07 3:20pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
I_am_Banned
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I think a decent place to go from here would be to define things like Nazism, Socialism, Communism, Democracy,fascism, and things like that. I've heard so many different definitions of all of those terms that, while I feel I have a fairly good grasp on them, I can see how it would be super confusing to others.
Unless you have other ideas, or you want to see this go in a different direction.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 3:17pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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Vivec, your signature's line about illegal immigration is ridiculously partisan and laughable in it's own right. Nobody could accuse me of racism but I support America getting a first world immigration system and nobody should ever tolerate illegal migration.
Uh, that was statement made by Jon Stewart on the Daily Show in response to a Republican Congressman's comment. I thought it was hilarious and put it in my sig.
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Lord Sithis, Dark Lord of Entropy  Senator of the Disciples of Lady Lumiya and Lord Shadowspawn Avatar: Of Fire and Lightning: http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_fan_fiction/b10808/28930140/p1/?5 Obama/Biden '08 
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 3:19pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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The one I love the most is when open borders advocates say anybody that wants immigration reform just doesn't want to learn Spanish.
I like Mexicans more than I like my fellow white people, but I still think we need to put up a giant wall on the border. Perhaps because I feel that the Mexicans don't need to come here as bad as Haitians and Africans do.
A few days ago on the campaign I ran into a few illegals, they were BY FAR the nicest people I met in the entire neighborhood. I still want very strict border security, but I am starting to think there are a lot of Americans I would like to deport before we deported the Mexicans en mass.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 3:26pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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I_am_Banned posted:
I think a decent place to go from here would be to define things like Nazism, Socialism, Communism, Democracy, and things like that. I've heard so many different definitions of all of those terms that, while I feel I have a fairly good grasp on them, I can see how it would be super confusing to others.
Unless you have other ideas, or you want to see this go in a different direction.
I'm happy to go with that; concepts like democracy and nationalism, for example, are what political scientists (for the record, I really don't like being considered a "political scientist") call "essentially contested concepts" in that the precise defition is elusive and disagreed upon.
E_S
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
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Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 4:14pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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Rogue: Slight correction about Jove and Jupiter: the deity's proper name is Iovis, i.e. Jove. Iuppiter is an interesting construction that's analoguous to the Greek zeu pater (Zeus the Father)--that is, the Indo-European Sky God is also the Father and the head of the pantheon.
But yes, it was a reference to paternalism--which isn't necessarily harsh, since the Roman Jupiter was considerably more just and less arbitrary than the Greek Zeus.
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Rogue_Ten
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 4:20pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
- Date Edited:
9/24/07 4:26pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Rogue_Ten
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Backwards posted:
I like Mexicans more than I like my fellow white people, but I still think we need to put up a giant wall on the border.
The wall thing is a simplistic quick fix. Alot more needs to change to fix immigration in this country. My apologies if you were speaking in metaphor and don't actually think that a giant wall would be much more than an enormous waste of money.
While it is certainly true that most people probably aren't being "racist" in thinking we need to fix immigration, please realize that many of them are.
I worked in a Spanish-speaking clinic in the Phoenix metro-area over the summer, and racism aside, the level of ignorance is STAGGERING. For instance, the area where I worked, Guadalupe, AZ, exists as a square mile chunk out of the middle of the city of Tempe. It is (correctly) seen as the "ghetto" of The Valley. However, it is also falsely percieved as a haven for illegal immigrants in the area, when in fact larger concentrations exist elsewhere in Phoenix. Simply because the residents are overwhelmingly brown and spanish-speaking, they are percieved and constructed as "illegals" by the surrounding populace, and even the local media. However, the fact of the matter is that in reality, 90% of the people there are members of the Pasqua Yaqui tribe, which were driven up to their present settlement by the Mexican government in the 1800s, before Phoenix or Tempe even existed, and LONG before Arizona was a state.
Despite this ironic truth, every time I mentioned my work in Guadalupe to a white resident of Phoenix, I would get questions about dealing with the "illegals" and the "Mexicans". In fact, the only Guadalupe outsider whom I have spoken to who has indicated an awareness of the Yaqui people and their overwhelming prevalence in Guadalupe was a former Arizona resident whom I attend school with here in Oregon.
In reality, I never encountered any "illegals" and only saw a total of two Mexicans (not synonymous with illegal, remember folks), during the four months I worked at the clinic, which was non-profit, independent, and the only clinic in the town. The overwhelming desire in these borderlands to see all spanish-speaking people as "illegal" represents individual racism in many cases and institutional racism in the others.
I might also note the fact that several founders of the Arizona Minute Men have connections to white supremecist groups. They have linked to hate sites on their homepage and have included members of the National Alliance in their projects.
To sum up: Immigration needs fixing. Many people concerned about illegal immigration are not acting from racism. But many of them are, and many others are being influenced by the racism which has embedded itself in the structure of local and national society.
GAJ: I was aware of the Latin origins, but thought them too obscure to be worth including. 
I was not, however, aware that Jupiter was seen as less harsh, though now that I look up some Jupiter tales and compare them with Zeus stories, I can see why.
EDIT: My favorite is people who claim they aren't bigots but show a sudden interest and urgency with regard to making English our official national language. 
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I_am_Banned
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 4:24pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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 If you're going to have this discussion in this thread, you're going to have to define "racism", and "immigration"...and how they relate to international politics. It could be a very interesting discussion to have, though.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 4:29pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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Rouge_Ten, similarly, a large chunk of the illegal immigrant movement is racist. I think I'd potentially even suggest moreso.
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Rogue_Ten
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 4:32pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
- Date Edited:
9/24/07 4:33pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Rogue_Ten
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Illegal immigration is not a political "movement".
And I'm not surprised that you would.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 4:45pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
- Date Edited:
9/24/07 4:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ender_Sai
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Oh, you're implying he's racist?
Rogue Ten, do you know where the most racist place on Earth I've been was? Taiwan. Asian hatred for Westerners is astounding, and it amused me to see Westerners assuming racism was the sole affliction of white people.
There's no reason to look down on someone suggesting that non-whites may be racist.
E_S
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 4:58pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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Ender_Sai posted:
Vivec, your signature's line about illegal immigration is ridiculously partisan and laughable in it's own right. Nobody could accuse me of racism but I support America getting a first world immigration system and nobody should ever tolerate illegal migration.
Illegal immigration in the US is the symptom, not the illness. The illness is our antiquated, totally unrealistic, badly managed, and just downright stupid immigration policy.
We now return you to your previous discussion.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 5:16pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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This discussion stemmed from a misunderstanding. I'm sure my earlier explanation can put it to rest.
Lord_Vivec posted:
Vivec, your signature's line about illegal immigration is ridiculously partisan and laughable in it's own right. Nobody could accuse me of racism but I support America getting a first world immigration system and nobody should ever tolerate illegal migration.
Uh, that was statement made by Jon Stewart on the Daily Show in response to a Republican Congressman's comment. I thought it was hilarious and put it in my sig.
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Lord Sithis, Dark Lord of Entropy Senator of the Disciples of Lady Lumiya and Lord Shadowspawn Avatar: Of Fire and Lightning: http://boards.theforce.net/non_star_wars_fan_fiction/b10808/28930140/p1/?5 Obama/Biden '08
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New_York_Jedi
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 5:32pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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dizfactor posted:
Illegal immigration in the US is the symptom, not the illness. The illness is our antiquated, totally unrealistic, badly managed, and just downright stupid immigration policy.
We now return you to your previous discussion.
Wouldn't the illness be that people so desperately want to leave their home country that they are willing to illegally enter the US?
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/24/07 5:39pm
Subject:
RE: Neofascistconservativeleftistprogre ssiveliberalism, FTW!
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We've got a thread for this discussion guys.
E_S
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