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Topic:
The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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ObiWan506
Title: JC Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
5/9 11:13am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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He's also taking victory laps in the House. Obama is definitely switching strategies for a general election. A good move because it alienates Hillary and keeps her stuck in denial while everyone else moves on.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
5/9 11:14am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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But Obama will have an edge, in that he will have a majority of the Democratic base solidly behind him, while McCain won't.
Republican voter turnout is going to be a huge issue. McCain is the nominee only because Republicans were too dispirited to find a better candidate and vote for him/her. McCain will have a hard time becoming president for precisely that reason.
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ObiWan506
Title: JC Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
5/9 11:21am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Let me ask you guys something. Is it better for Obama to address Hillary on her "I have white votes" comment or should he let her dig that hole herself? What if he brings up the factual argument that he has a great advantage in the African-American vote and waits for Hillary to either shut up or let her bury herself even more by saying that somehow her voters are superior. (Either by saying that or implying that) He can trap her once and for all with a comment like that, right? He can end her with a trap like that.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/9 11:28am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/9 11:30am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
J-Rod
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Gonk posted:
The Dems have painted themselves into a corner and now will blame racism for it.
I don't know about racism -- I mean some will -- but I'll certainly blame the country as being presdisoposed towards the Republican party, and putting the GOP before thier own nation.
What else can you say when you vote for Bush over Kerry, and then turn around and take this guy McCain -- who's very much like an older version of John Kerry (a long-time Senator, Vietnam vet [although in a less dirty air war], married to a rather wealthy woman, tendancy to "flip-flop" to at least the same degree) -- and then vote for him over Obama?
Come on, you're obviously voting for the party before the candidate, and it doesn't really matter who was put up there unless the GOP candidate ended up being particularly reprehensible. For someone to go on these decisions in back to back presidential elections and expect me to swallow that this it was ever really about the sort of candidates that were actually fielded is simply a hypocrite, and no doubt as worthy of office themselves as the very "Washington attitude" they are often given to decry.
Hold on Gonk. I agree with much of what you said. McCain certainly isn't my first choice for a nominee. Hell, he just barely beat Ron Paul in my mind. But given all of that, why wouldn't I still vote for McCain? Do you think that because my party's candidate is weak on the issues that I find important that somehow Clinton or Obama will be a better conservative?
See, when I vote I look for the most conservative candidate. Are you prepared to tell me that BHO is more conservative than McCain? Or that Kerry would've been more conservative that Bush? And you'll note my own complains about Bush's liberal leanings. He called it "Compassionate Conservastism."
Though I don't like McCain I'm still gonna vote for him. Does that make me a blindly voting Republican? If that's what you think...fine. But I'm gonna vote for the most conservative offerring. Period.
See, the fight here is against socialism and islamic terrorism. McCain is the best name on the ticket.
Understand that only 35% of Republicans supported McCain durring the primaries. This is why I rail against a three party system. Who would have won had the choice been McCain and say...Romney...without all the other candidate taking the eye off the ball?
Darth Geist, I'd love to continue this in the proper thread.
But suffice it to say that you see bias in the picture title only because you see bias in Fox. If CNN did the same thing you'd assume it was against Hillary. The label didn't instill an opinion. You just had one.
It's not like FOX put an "X" over BHO's face.
And understand that I have never, even once, called myself a "centrist" or "moderate." Well, not since 9/11 anyway. I am a conservative.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
5/9 11:53am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Republicans are going to stay home in November by the millions. Like J-Rod, they can't bring themselves to vote for a democrat. Unlike J-Rod, however, they are against a continuation of the Iraq war and don't trust McCain on economic issues. So they simply won't vote.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/9 11:55am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Jabbadabbado posted:
Republicans are going to stay home in November by the millions. Like J-Rod, they can't bring themselves to vote for a democrat. Unlike J-Rod, however, they are against a continuation of the Iraq war and don't trust McCain on economic issues. So they simply won't vote.
I think that you are wrong. I can't wait to see though!
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God bless George Bush John McCain 2008 Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are"
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
5/9 11:58am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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But Obama will have an edge, in that he will have a majority of the Democratic base solidly behind him, while McCain won't.
And J-Rod brings up excellent points. I'd say that McCain and Obama have just about the same chances in relation to each other than anyone, because the general election will start focusing on the issues.
What I am still amazed at are the sheer amount of perception swings that the demmie primary has produced. Just two days ago, people from within the party were lamenting that "Hillary supporters won't vote for Obama, and vice versa." But now, Obama suddenly has the majority of the base behind him? I don't mean this as a ding against Obama, but as an illustration of the wide perception changes that the primary has brought on.
There was a blurb in the newspaper today that mentioned that McCain experienced his single largest fundraising jump on Wednesday, as a result of the latest primary results. The figure was just over 7 million for the day, so I think people from both parties recognize that the primary is over- and are gearing up for the general.
Primary mode is over, and the general election brings with it a new focus. I would say either has a built in advantage over the other.
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
5/9 11:59am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/9 12:00pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Geist
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J-Rod posted:
Though I don't like McCain I'm still gonna vote for him. Does that make me a blindly voting Republican? If that's what you think...fine. But I'm gonna vote for the most conservative offerring. Period.
Why?
Better question: What would it take to convince you not to vote for a Republican? Say Mark Foley were running again. Would you vote for him?
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Joe Biden posted:
What do you talk about when you have nothing to say?
What do you talk about when you cannot explain the last
eight years of failure? You talk about the other guy!
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/9 12:02pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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J-Rod: Why are you a conservative?
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Obama/Biden '08
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
5/9 12:05pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Better question: What would it take to convince you not to vote for a Republican?
Easy, nominate a strong, confident Blue Dog, and it would be over.
Reverse the question- what would it take to convince you not to vote for a democrat? and I'm sure you would give a similar answer from the opposite perspective.
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
5/9 12:12pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/9 12:13pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Geist
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Mr44 posted:
Better question: What would it take to convince you not to vote for a Republican?
Easy, nominate a strong, confident Blue Dog, and it would be over.
Reverse the question- what would it take to convince you not to vote for a democrat? and I'm sure you would give a similar answer from the opposite perspective.
Yeah, I'd have voted for 2000 McCain, back when he deserved the whole "maverick" label. Not now, though. He's pretty much morphed into Bush III, and the last thing this country needs is four more years of disaster.
What I'm interested to know, though, is how people come to believe that any candidate from their own party, no matter how good or bad, is automatically better than any candidate from the other party.
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Joe Biden posted:
What do you talk about when you have nothing to say?
What do you talk about when you cannot explain the last
eight years of failure? You talk about the other guy!
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
5/9 12:26pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/9 12:30pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
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Well, it depends on what you mean by that. Personally, I think the "Bush III" label is extremely silly, because the similarities are superficial at best.
If McCain is Bush III, then Obama really is a muslim terrorist, based on nothing but labels. 
But the question you're asking reflects the two party system as it exists. Let's look to the last midterm election as an example. The democrats retook the majority in Congress, but how did they do it?
For example, if I remember the previous discussion, some 75% of democrats who won received an A or B rating from the NRA, and were against additional gun control. The remaining didn't exactly make gun control an issue at all. Typically, the issue of gun control has been a democratic one. So what was gained by having many democrats move right on that issue? There will always be "Gin and Juice" Teddy, or "red faced" Waxman, but both parties have those examples.
But which is more important for someone who believes in the 2nd Amendment? The fact that the representative has an (R) or (D) after their name, or that they actually share the same view?
If you want some examples of Blue Dog democrats I would vote for, look at Stephanie Sandlin from South Dakota. She's a democrat- but is against gun control, generally supports small government/fiscal responsibility, sits on the Veteran's committee, and is pro-choice, but not rabid about it. Melissa Bean from Illinois is another such example. Mike Arcuri from New York State...
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
5/9 12:34pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Now look what McCain gets to deal with....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXZbIGJrDkg
If you thought the primaries were fun with youtube vids, the main election is going to be a blast with vids
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
5/9 12:42pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/9 12:50pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Geist
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Well, I'd say "Bush III" carries a bit more weight than "OBAMA OSAMA HUMMM ARE THEY BROTHERS" (which is a direct quote from a South Carolina church sign.)
Think of all the Bush policies McCain used to oppose, but now supports; things like the Iraq War, and torture, and permanent tax cuts for the rich. He shares Bush's fuzzy understanding of the economy and foreign policy. (That last one is the real dealbreaker; he wants war, but doesn't know who we're supposed to be fighting.)
Are there any of Bush's policies he wants to discontinue?
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Joe Biden posted:
What do you talk about when you have nothing to say?
What do you talk about when you cannot explain the last
eight years of failure? You talk about the other guy!
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
5/9 12:45pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/9 12:52pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
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BlueJedi- Well, I'd say that I'd hope people would generally be smart enough to look through the fact that a socialist group put up a contrary political clip on Youtube- and take it at face value, but I know that would be a pipe dream.
On a side note, I'm just glad that Moveon.Org finally admitted their political leaning this election, instead of still pretending to be a "non-partisan" political group. It's more ironic that most of their activity has been anti-Clinton in nature thus far.
Think of all the Bush policies McCain used to oppose, but now supports; things like the Iraq War, and tortue, and permanent tax cuts for the rich.
Yes, but this is exactly my point. "Supports" torture? "Supports" the Iraq War, and so on.... All of those examples are much more complicated than you are dismissing them as. Hey, one of Obama's few "for" votes was to re-authorize the Patriot Act, so he must support torture as well, right? Of course, the Patriot Act has nothing to do with torture, but what does that matter? (of course the reality is that after saying he wouldn't vote for it, he looked at the final, compromise reauthorization, and voted to support that..)
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