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Author Topic: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Leto II 
Registered: Jan '00
42114_Jones Attacked
Date Posted: 5/9 8:58pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions - Date Edited: 5/9 9:00pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Leto II
Nice cartoon, that...Gwen Ifill led an interesting discussion on this very subject on her PBS show this evening.

In other news, the blue-collar Democrats are proving just as much a liability as the NASCAR Republicans:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080509/ap_on_el_pr/hillary_democrats

Which is worse: someone who doesn't vote because of their conscience, with thought-out, justifiable reasons, or someone who votes the party line without a thought in the world, regardless of who it is?

I don't know why this lax attitude is acceptable. If you don't vote -- whether it's out of ignorance, or out of protest -- what right do you have to ever open your mouth in complaint, or pride?

It's due to the fact that a lot of people are lazy dip****s who still have a bizarre sense of entitlement linked to being a " 'murkin citizen." But I still have huge issues with adults that do this same thing.

"Oh, I don't care about voting. Oh, my votes don't count. Oh, Dancing With The Stars is on, and I don't really want to drive all the two blocks to the community center and stand in line for five minutes to cast a vote to keep corporations from pissing chemicals into my drinking water."

It's bullcrap non-activism at its worst, and sadly enough, it's a pretty pervasive mindset.

 

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Darth Geist 
Registered: Oct '99
6270_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 5/10 6:17am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions - Date Edited: 5/10 6:19am (2 edits total) Edited By: Darth Geist
Actually, J-Rod, now that I remember, McCain has proposed new tax cuts. That "gas tax holiday" he's been pushing? The one every single economist is against, that would unemploy thousands of road workers and save Americans pennies a week?

Yeah, don't put this guy in charge of the economy.

And that goes back to that earlier question: Would you knowingly vote for an unfit leader, just because he has an "R" after his name? We tried that the last couple of times. It didn't work too well.

 

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Vaderize03 
Title: Manager Emeritus
 Registered: Oct '99
14744_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 5/10 6:26am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
J-Rod posted:
J-Rod, that isn't truth, it's his, and your, perception of things. It's the "southern religious conservatism" prism of looking at national politics.

Brutha, I find this a little offensive. I'm not Southern nor do I beliong to any religious organisation.
You'll have to find another reason as to why my view is so different than yours. happy


I'm sorry you're offended. I'm offended by your previous "BHO" postings.

However, I got over it, and so will you happy .

The "southern conservative" thing was directed at DM, not you, so I apologize if I mischaracterized you by where you live.
I was in reality referring to a way of thinking, and that I do not have to apologize for, as myself and others are constantly defending the principles of liberalism against a belief system that seems to me, more often than not, to get away with an awful lot more than the "other side" in this country.

However, that has been previously addressed in this thread (the GOP "getting forgiven for" more gaffes than the dems tend to).


On another note, I have heard rumors that HRC may drop out by June 15th.

Any takers?

Peace,

V-03

 

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J-Rod 
Registered: Jul '04
19974_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 5/10 6:45am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions - Date Edited: 5/10 7:03am (3 edits total) Edited By: J-Rod
Darth Geist,

Bro, we can argue all day about whether Saddam was contained or not because we seem to have different conseptions of what "contained" means. The inspecters were kicked out of his country. And when they were there they needed to give three day notice before entering a facility. He had stockpiles of contraban conventional weapons. He used illicit funds garnered from improperly enforced sanctions to bribe UN members to pressure the UN to lift those sanctions and to set aside $20,000,000,000 for use after the sanctions were lifted.

A gathering storm cloud? IMO, yes.

And see? Look, we aren't so far apart on economic issues! Tort reform? It needs to happen for anything else to work.

But at the same time, how can jobs stay in the US? Have you seen our unemployment numbers? They've been below 5% for years. (With a brief bump about 5% the month before last) Five percent unemployment is considered full employment. Hell, we've been taking in more than 100,000 illegal workers an month for years just to fill jobs. Who could open a new employee driven business here? They almost have to open them overseas.

'Cause nobody is looking for work here.

And the "gas tax holiday"? I agree. It's a stupid idea. Would it unemploy thousands of people? No...that's alarmist thinking. These are probably the same people who said that we would still be in economic turmoil 10 years after 9/11.

And I can't call McCain an unfit leader. He's not the Republican's best option. But he's far from unfit. EDIT; Oh yeah, that little quote you keep giving about McCain saying that Iran was training a-Q? Stop that. Please. He misspoke. You would have a point if McCain argued with Lieberman when Lieberman corrected him. He didn't.

But I think that you knew better. wink

And V, I'm glad that you can get over my insulting insinuations of your favorite candidate. I guess after looking at it like that I must wonder what I was thinking getting offended by being personally insulted.

The next time BHO comes over for dinner tell him I said hey. tired

 

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Darth Geist 
Registered: Oct '99
6270_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 5/10 7:23am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions - Date Edited: 5/10 7:30am (2 edits total) Edited By: Darth Geist
There was nothing Saddam could have done to us. Not even to Israel. Israel can take care of itself; we spent the last sixty years making sure of that. (You're no doubt aware, by the way, that the reason he kicked out the inspectors was because Clinton was using their reports as recon for his airstrikes. And he did let the inspectors back in before we invaded.)

Again, the way we approached it, we solved one theoretical problem and created tens of thousands of immediate, real problems. We were all better off before we invaded Iraq. If we insisted on invading anyway, we could have made the preparations to do it right. Germany is stable now because the Roosevelt and Truman administrations did their homework. Bush didn't, and that's why we're in such a mess there now. We didn't have to be.

As for the employment numbers, a bigger problem than unemployment is underemployment. Sure, you can find a job, but a job that'll actually support you? That's trickier. Office work gets outsourced to India, factory work to China and Mexico, and skilled workers are left with nowhere to go but down. I've seen it.

As for the gas tax holiday, you're no doubt aware that it would cut at least a billion dollars from the road maintenance budget. That's not good for anybody, least of all the people who get paid to maintain roads. (It's not great for the people who drive on them, either.)

Regarding McCain, if he'd made only one gaffe on Middle East politics, you could write it off as a misstatement. But he's made several. He's drastically overplayed the role of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, falsely claiming that they'd be the ones to take over the country if we left. (They're a marginal player in Iraq. Even the Iraqis hate their guts. If anyone took over, it'd probably be Al-Sadr's native militia faction.) He's wrongly claimed that there are parts of Baghdad where you can walk down the street in broad daylight and be perfectly safe. (He said that after being escorted down the street by about a hundred soldiers who'd cleared out the street beforehand.) Every time he's asked how long the war will take, he's talked about how crucial "the next six months" will be — he's said that for years now. The guy just doesn't have a clue, about Iraq or the economy, and we need a leader who understands those things.

Out of curiosity, and off-topic, who would your ideal Republican candidate be this year?

 

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J-Rod 
Registered: Jul '04
19974_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 5/10 8:37am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Out of curiosity, and off-topic, who would your ideal Republican candidate be this year?

If he had wanted the job...Fred Thompson. But he didn't want the job. I'd've settled for Romney as a solid choise. Tancredo had the best attitude on illegal immigration yet was weak in ideas about legal immigration.

Look, I'm not too sure about "underemployment". I can find articles that say it's happening and ones that say it isn't. The economy moves at a less stable rate than income. If you look at the past 18 months then it is true. But we know that 18 months is a blip. A snapshot.

Wages will catch up with gas prices. Hell, it took 25 years for gas prices to catch up with wages. And health care? Who knows. The real answer is less government involvment, not more. Bush put 600,000,000,000 dollars into senior drug perscriptions his first term in office. The net result? Prices went up.

See, everything is worth what someone can or will pay for something. If someone can and will pay 600B for a product the price will climb to absorb that amount of money.

The government has mandated that employers pay for health coverage. The tax payers pay for much of the rest. Now, knowing that something is only worth what someone can and is willing to pay, is it any wonder that you and I can't get coverage on our own seeing as how the two biggest pockets in the country (business and tax payers) are the ones forced to pay?

With that much money floating around why would the industry even want our pitance? They just want to get the money from the "fat cats" that are forced to pay by law.

 

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Jabbadabbado 
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 5/10 9:35am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
That's not the only reason. "Managed care" has been an unmitigated disaster for this country. It imposes a completely unnecessary and arbitrary level of profit taking between patients and caregivers, squeezing extra money from both.

 

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Gonk 
Registered: Jul '98
6234_GNK droid
Date Posted: 5/10 10:03am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Bro, we can argue all day about whether Saddam was contained or not because we seem to have different conseptions of what "contained" means. The inspecters were kicked out of his country.

They weren't kicked out, they decided to leave. True, they were getting pushback from the regime, but this is a common misconception. The inspectors were still permitted to stay. This has been stated on these boards for many years J-Rod; why is it you're stating it the opposite way now, still? Did you not see those other posts?

And when they were there they needed to give three day notice before entering a facility. He had stockpiles of contraban conventional weapons. He used illicit funds garnered from improperly enforced sanctions to bribe UN members to pressure the UN to lift those sanctions and to set aside $20,000,000,000 for use after the sanctions were lifted.

A gathering storm cloud? IMO, yes.

By that definition there's got to be dozens of storm clouds in the world right now, many of them a lot more dangerous-looking than the one we're discussing.

 

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Darth-Ghost 
Registered: Oct '03
23041_Anakin's Ghost<br>Hayden
Date Posted: 5/10 1:48pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Obama has now overtaken Clinton in number of superdelegates. Link

 
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Darth Geist 
Registered: Oct '99
6270_Darth Vader
Date Posted: 5/10 2:29pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Yeah, I could have gotten behind Fred Thompson.

The way I see it, free-market capitalism is a great thing — when it operates within a framework of fairness and decency. The problem with total free-market capitalism is that the greediest bastard wins.

Example: HMOs. And if you don't already know, let me tell you about how those came to be.

Back in the day, many more doctors owned private practices, or worked in small teams. My friend's father was one of them, and he did very well for himself, earning about $200,000 a year.

Then HMOs started to form. They bought the buildings the doctors worked in, and told the doctors, "You either work for us, for a third of what you used to make, or you don't work at all." Naturally, most doctors resisted this by moving to other venues. Then the HMOs bought out those venues, and told them, "Hey, we remember you! You either work for us, for a fourth of what you used to make, or you don't work at all."

Today, my friend's dad, who's been a competent doctor for twenty years, makes about $80,000 a year — a fraction of what he made decades ago. All because the people behind the HMOs wanted to make money, and didn't care about anything else.

That's the dark side of free-market capitalism, and that's why there's such a need for balance between decency and opportunity.

 

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Mr44 
Registered: May '02
Date Posted: 5/10 2:45pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
They weren't kicked out, they decided to leave. True, they were getting pushback from the regime, but this is a common misconception. The inspectors were still permitted to stay. This has been stated on these boards for many years J-Rod; why is it you're stating it the opposite way now, still? Did you not see those other posts?

Gonk, come on. I have no interest in re, re-debating the pre-war situation in Iraq, but saying that the inspectors decided to leave....?

Yeah, they "decided" to leave because when they would show up to inspect critical sites, they were confronted by AK-47 wielding guards who blocked their way. Since the inspectors were lightly armed and had no mandate for enforcement besides basic self defense, they withdrew.

So yeah, technically they were allowed to stay "in country," but honestly, how effective could the inspectors be if they did nothing but sit at their hotel and not inspect anything? It kind of defeats the purpose, you know?

 

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Lowbacca_1977 
Title: Senate Moderator
 Registered: Jun '06
Date Posted: 5/10 3:24pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Tancredo would have been a really weak candidate and really had a one issue platform.
Though to be fair, as I recall, Tancredo acknowledged he was in the election for that one issue.

 
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Gonk 
Registered: Jul '98
6234_GNK droid
Date Posted: 5/10 8:49pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Yeah, they "decided" to leave because when they would show up to inspect critical sites, they were confronted by AK-47 wielding guards who blocked their way. Since the inspectors were lightly armed and had no mandate for enforcement besides basic self defense, they withdrew.

So yeah, technically they were allowed to stay "in country," but honestly, how effective could the inspectors be if they did nothing but sit at their hotel and not inspect anything? It kind of defeats the purpose, you know?

That is not what J-Rod SAID. He said they were kicked out of the country. If his purpose was concerning the inspections, well maybe I wouldn't have said anything. But he said:

Bro, we can argue all day about whether Saddam was contained or not because we seem to have different conseptions of what "contained" means. The inspecters were kicked out of his country.

The context to this is in how Saddam was contained, as if this was proof he was not contained. As if to say "look how brazen this guy was to kick inspectors out of his country"... therefore, some partial evidence that he was not contained.

But there's one problem with that. It didn't happen, they weren't kicked out.

 

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Darth Mischievous 
Registered: Oct '99
40336_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 5/11 6:03am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Unfortunately, I must address this issue brought up by V:

V03 posted:
it's his, and your, perception of things. It's the "southern religious conservatism" prism of looking at national politics.


This is a non sequitur in terms of the discussion for which I was involved in at the time. This is simply an example of a simple emotional labeling and overgeneralization as a response to bringing up viable issues about Obama and his history (that have been discussed throughly by all the punditry on all the networks for weeks). So, don't try to weazel out of that you weren't referring to J-Rod as well, because the quote is plain. You've been routinely making inadequate comparisons in defense of Obama, and it seems to be a bit of an overreaction here. Obama's issues have nothing to do with the 'southern religious conservative' prism. Look at your own home State of Pennsylvania, V, to what happened to Obama. His history, his relationships and his ideology are all fair game, as are McCain's. He will ignore them at his peril.

As if Obama himself is above politics. First, he demands civility and then attacks his opponent while trying to appear above it all. It's the oldest political trick in the book, and he's demonstrated hypocrisy. He will have to defend viable weaknesses, as will John McCain.

But, V, it's easier to play the ostrich because a candidate is inspiring to one's sensitivities. I'm under no illusions about McCain's weaknesses, including party brand. Republicans have failed because of irresponsible governance.

The weaknesses you're so often dismissing about Obama will be much more glaring for general election voters in the fall. McCain is vetted, and Obama is an unknown quantity. He will be defined by his history, his relationships and his ideology...which is not center-left to begin with. He simply can't win on college youth and the black bloc vote alone, while McCain must rely on independents and working class Dems... for which Obama - after all this time - has been unable to convince into voting for him, even in partisan primaries.

Facts are stubborn things, V. Obama has electability issues.

 
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Emperor_Billy_Bob 
Registered: Aug '00
24202_Palpatine
Date Posted: 5/11 6:12am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Darth Mischievous posted:

The weaknesses you're so often dismissing about Obama will be much more glaring for general election voters in the fall. McCain is vetted, and Obama is an unknown quantity. He will be defined by his history, his relationships and his ideology...which is not center-left to begin with. He simply can't win on college youth and the black bloc vote alone, while McCain must rely on independents and working class Dems... for which Obama - after all this time - has been unable to convince into voting for him, even in partisan primaries.


The problem with this "Obama can't get working class Dems" is that they tend to be party line voters, who for the most part sided with Hillary because she is an established quantity within the Democratic party.

AFAIK there is no reason to believe that those who working class people who voted Hillary won't stay in party when the time comes. This whole line that you can use Primaries as a predictor of the general election is just completely without backing, wishful thinking invented by the Right and Hillary Clinton.

The extent to which Obama's electability has been compromised has been INCREDIBLY overstated by people on the right. Its like they are trying to convince themselves it is true. This is still Obama's election to lose. Just play the "Do you want 4 more years of Bush" card and he will probably cruise into office. If the economy gets worse, the GOP, Bush, and McCain are going to get the brunt of voter dissatisfaction.

The fact is that people during this election are suffering from "Lets extrapolate out a minor event during the Primaries to have some huge significance in the General election" disorder. The General election has yet to take shape, and when it does all the cards will be in Obama's hands as far as the state of the nation.

 

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