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Topic:
The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
5/11 9:07am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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John McCain in his own words. The Scott Ritter part makes you really think about an attack on Iran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDZxcR0E-PE
If after you watch this video you still think that McCain would make the best leader for America, your whats called a
die-hard neo-con.
-----signature-----
"It is the function of the CIA to keep the world unstable, and to propagandize and teach the American people to hate and fear, so we will let the Establishment spend any amount of money on arms."
- John Stockwell, former CIA Case Officer,
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chibiangi
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/11 10:04am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Gee, that wasn't biased.
-----signature-----
Talk nerdy to me.
mujaki na kao de boku ni hohoemu
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
5/11 12:41pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Since when was politics not?
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It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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Alpha-Red
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
5/11 12:59pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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It's not even politics anymore, all the hatred has pretty much devolved our country into a virtual civil war. Sure it's not being fought with bullets and that's undoubtedly a good thing, but it's no less destructive.
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shinjo_jedi
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
5/11 1:55pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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DM posted:
He will be defined by his history, his relationships and his ideology
You act as if these are liabilities to him, while they are not for McCain. McCain has just as may, if not more skeletons in his closet. The Keating 5? Flip flopping? His relationship with George W. Bush is more damaging to his image than Reverand Wright is to Obama. His ideology? It's the exact same as George W. Bush, and the country has rejected that after suffering 8 years from it.
You simply right off that Obama has "electability issues" because of those three categories - while McCain has just as many "electability issues" because of the similar reasons. You write off that Obama is going to have trouble winning the working class Dem vote and independents. I think you're grossly exaggerating it. Even if the working class Dem vote isn't thrilled about Obama, I think they'll come out and vote for him than either stay home in fear of voting for a carbon-copy of a man who ruined their situation over the last 8 years, or more unlikely yet, vote for that man.
-----signature-----
Barack Obama. 2008.  One thing I can tell you is you got to be free.
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
5/11 2:18pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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I read McCain's book Why Courage Matters several years ago, and it made an impression on me. Then I saw how this "man of conviction" swung right and kowtowed to the extreme right, and I lost all respect for him. He now strikes me as incredibly disingenuous, and I can't see how anyone can get behind him in light of that. He's just throwing out partisan red meat (e.g., the Hamas wants Obama comment), which the logician in me recognizes as crass pandering and manipulation. I saw the same thing in the PA primary two years ago (a debate between Democratic candidates vying for Rick Santorum's seat) - a historian named Panacchio (sp?) was throwing around comments about impeaching Bush and other blathering, and the folks around me were eating it up. I talked my father out of voting for him by exposing it for what it was.
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Yeah, mind power, Swede; mind power.
You can never have too much precision in your soup.
Exit, pursued by a bear
More Rockets = More Science
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Vaderize03
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
5/11 2:30pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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This is a non sequitur in terms of the discussion for which I was involved in at the time. This is simply an example of a simple emotional labeling and overgeneralization as a response to bringing up viable issues about Obama and his history (that have been discussed throughly by all the punditry on all the networks for weeks). So, don't try to weazel out of that you weren't referring to J-Rod as well, because the quote is plain. You've been routinely making inadequate comparisons in defense of Obama, and it seems to be a bit of an overreaction here.
Whoa, hold on here buddy. What you're accusing me of is how you have approached almost every post in the past year. You give very sweeping generalizations in most of your posts. As far as J-Rod goes, I was obviously referring to him, but I was mistaken in the geography. I also separately addressed that with him, but I did not go so far as to back off my remarks on the mindset I was referring to.
My point is, and remains, that you consistently trot out the republican playbook when it comes to why Obama can't win: Wright, democratic "race baiting", too "liberal"; it won't work this time around. When it comes down to it, Obama is an game-changing candidate in the way that Reagan was. He's an idea, and the time has come for his ideas. He can certainly lose, no question, but the ball is squarely in his court.
Now on to McCain. Vetted? They haven't even started on him yet. I would very fearful if I were a republican right now, because Senator McCain has flown under the radar for a very long time. As soon as the democratic race is settled, we're going to get a MSM lovefest about the party "healing" and then it will be open season on Mr. McCain. We're going to hear about the Keating 5, the Iraq War, his economic inexperience, all his gaffes, his association with Bush.
Why? Is it because his ideas are so much worse than Obama's? Of course not....but jumping on him will be new. It just hasn't happened yet, and it's going to happen. Moreover, it's going to happen much, much closer to the general election than all the rabid attacks against the dems. They've come and gone, while McCain has quietly sailed on by. Wright and what-not will be old news by the fall.....but there's plenty of time to introduce the country to Johnny's skeletons, positions, and associations.
Look, like I stated earlier, the cycle is strongly against the GOP this year. The War, the Economy, a highly unpopular president, and a charismatic (although imperfect) challenger, young and idealistic-appealing, all go against the GOP this year. McCain will be tough to run against, but I do believe he will lose. The dems will unite, they have a tremendous financial advantage over the GOP, GOP turnout has been very depressed this year, and the dems are running a 50-state strategy that has a better chance of winning that anything they've done since Bill Clinton.
It's not a lock by any means, but for right now, there is a shifting of ideas, and that shift is favoring the dems. The reasons you listed for why Obama can't be elected will not ring true in November. You won't vote for him, that much is clear, and neither will J-Rod, but you have to understand that the reasons the two of you won't probably aren't going to convince enough independents, moderate republicans, and HRC supporters to either stay home or back McCain. It just won't happen. What went on in Pennsylvania won't matter in the fall, because the democratic voters will fall in line together, and there are more than enough moderate republicans and Obama supporters in the Philly area and suburbs-and there will be in the Pittsburg area, as well-to keep the state blue. He has work to do, but he'll pull it off.
Anyway, I'm rambling. It's going to be a tough election, but it's Obama's to lose, and I don't think he will. Gas prices at near $5 a gallon by the end of summer alone are going to make it very hard for McCain not to be tied to Bush.
Glad to see you back on the boards  .
Peace,
V-03
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"Bring your pretty face to my axe....."
B-O-H-I-C-A !! (that was funny DM!)
"I'm what Willis was talking about"
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/11 2:35pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/11 2:39pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
KnightWriter
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DM, when you get down to it, I think it just pisses you off immensely that millions of voters have chosen Barack Obama as their Democratic candidate, and you just can't understand why. In a sense, you're pretty much where Hillary Clinton is. I suspect that she still can't bring herself to believe that she's been all but beaten by a first-term senator and relative newcomer to politics as compared to her (though he's far from new on his own merits, given his extensive experience in Illinois).
That she fails to understand how and why was her undoing, and it could be the undoing of the GOP as well.
George Will put it well:
McCain's problem might turn out to be the fact that Obama is the Democrats' Reagan. Obama's rhetorical cotton candy lacks Reagan's ideological nourishment, but he is Reaganesque in two important senses: People like listening to him, and his manner lulls his adversaries into underestimating his sheer toughness -- the tempered steel beneath the sleek suits.
Obama is far smarter and tougher than folks like yourself give him credit for. If the GOP believes its own press about him, it will find itself on the outside looking in when it comes to the White House, the Senate and the House come January of 2009.
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"May you live all the days of your life"
"The Obama Car will be fueled by FISA amendments and emit civil liberties for exhaust." A-B
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
5/11 2:48pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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My life will be complete, V03, once I get you to start spelling Pittsburgh with the 'h'.
-----signature-----
Yeah, mind power, Swede; mind power.
You can never have too much precision in your soup.
Exit, pursued by a bear
More Rockets = More Science
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/11 3:17pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Is it backwards that I'm annoyed with McCain's view on Somalia by that video more than his view on Iraq?
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LtNOWIS
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/11 3:18pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/11 3:22pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LtNOWIS
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Blue_Jedi33 posted:
John McCain in his own words. The Scott Ritter part makes you really think about an attack on Iran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDZxcR0E-PE
If after you watch this video you still think that McCain would make the best leader for America, your whats called a
die-hard neo-con.
Not to be a jerk about it, but
Your vs You're.
Quixotic-Sith posted:
I read McCain's book Why Courage Matters several years ago, and it made an impression on me. Then I saw how this "man of conviction" swung right and kowtowed to the extreme right, and I lost all respect for him.
Honestly, I accept the reality that politicians need to say stuff to get elected. As a Republican, he must think that Republican philosophies are better for the nation. As such, he has a responsibility to try to get the nomination, as he is far more electable than any of the other GOP candidates. McCain's professed positions are not far-right. Victory in Iraq, enforcing immigration laws, lowering taxes; that's pretty mainstream Republican.
In fact, the extreme right still dislikes McCain. Michelle Malkin routinely lambastes him on immigration and other issues. He splits with the right wing on drilling for oil in the Alaska National Wildlife Refuge, global warming, and immigration.
Anyways, I'm watching McCain's interview on the Factor. His statements at the end of this clip (7:40 onwards) are going to get a lot of play online. There's already enough video out there linking him to Bush, and he can't change history. But that's pretty bad, politically
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
5/11 4:24pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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DM, when you get down to it, I think it just pisses you off immensely that millions of voters have chosen Barack Obama as their Democratic candidate, and you just can't understand why.
I highly doubt DM is pissed off that millions of voters chose Barak Obama.
It would be closer to the mark that millions of voters would vote Democrat, period.
What strikes me as odd is that so many people say they would not support Obama if he becomes the nominee yet they would support Clinton. If I'm not mistaken, they were saying this well before Wright came along, or the comments in San Francisco. And Obama has hardly been playing the part of the arrogant victor.
Odd.
-----signature-----
What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
Shall we set out upon this sea of faces
In search of more and more and more?
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/11 4:27pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/11 4:29pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lowbacca_1977
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I agree Gonk. I see them as pretty similar candidates
Although, last night my dad was talking about being a bit more likely to support Obama only over the gas tax holiday.
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DeathStar1977
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
5/11 4:45pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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LtNOWIS
Not to be a jerk about it, but
Your vs You're.
Its a pet peeve of mine too.
Regarding McCain, I'm not so bothered by his position shifts per se, rather that he gets away with it with virtually no criticism from the media. On top of that, he's still touted as a maverick. IMO that could be his biggest potential weakness, not the Keating Five, etcetera, rather that his image as a 'maverick' could be severely comprised should he get some actual scrutiny.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
5/11 5:04pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/11 5:12pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
ShaneP
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Darth Geist
The way I see it, free-market capitalism is a great thing — when it operates within a framework of fairness and decency. The problem with total free-market capitalism is that the greediest bastard wins.
We have corporatist socialism in which the elite redistribute taxpayer funds to their corporate cronies and beneficiaries. No such thing as free market capitalism.
Your "solution", more government involvement to "ensure" fairness and decency, would only result in making it worse because that's what we curently operate under.
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