Author Topic: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
KnightWriter 
Title:
Administrator Emeritus

Registered: Nov '01
45250_YJCC
Date Posted: 5/11 5:21pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions - Date Edited: 5/11 5:22pm (1 edits total) Edited By: KnightWriter
I think this Newsweek article offers a glimpse into why Obama will be the nominee and possibly the president, and why Clinton failed:


How do you know if Barack Obama is unhappy with what you're saying— or not saying? At meetings of his closest advisers, he likes to lean back, put his feet on the table and close his eyes. If he doesn't like how the conversation is going, he will lean forward, put his feet on the floor and "adjust his socks, kind of start tugging at them," says Michael Strautmanis, a counselor to the campaign. Obama wants people to talk, but he doesn't want to intimidate them. "If you haven't said anything, he'll call on you," says Strautmanis. "He's never said it, but he usually thinks if somebody is very quiet it's because they disagree with what everybody is saying … so Barack will call on you and say, 'You've been awfully quiet'." There are no screamers on Team Obama; one senior Obama aide says he's heard him yell only twice in four years. Obama was explicit from the beginning: there was to be "no drama," he told his aides. "I don't want elbowing or finger-pointing. We're going to rise or fall together." Obama wanted steady, calm, focused leadership; he wanted to keep out the grandstanders and make sure the quiet dissenters spoke up. A good formula for running a campaign—or a presidency.

It worked against Hillary Clinton, whose own campaign has been rent by squabbling aides and turf battles. While Clinton veered between playing Queen Elizabeth I and Norma Rae, Obama and his team chugged along with a superior 50-state campaign strategy, racking up the delegates. If the candidate seemed weary and peevish or a little slow to respond at times, he never lost his cool. But the real test is yet to come. The Republican Party has been successfully scaring voters since 1968, when Richard Nixon built a Silent Majority out of lower- and middle-class folks frightened or disturbed by hippies and student radicals and blacks rioting in the inner cities. The 2008 race may turn on which party will win the lower- and middle-class whites in industrial and border states—the Democrats' base from the New Deal to the 1960s, but "Reagan Democrats" in most presidential elections since then. It is a sure bet that the GOP will try to paint Obama as "the other"—as a haughty black intellectual who has Muslim roots (Obama is a Christian) and hangs around with America-haters.

Obama says he's ready for the onslaught. "Yes, we know what's coming," he told a cheering crowd as he won the North Carolina primary last week. "We've seen it already … the attempts to play on our fears and exploit our differences to turn us against each other for pure political gain—to slice and dice this country into Red States and Blue States; blue-collar and white-collar; white, black, brown." Hillary Clinton was not above playing on those fears. Refusing to concede defeat last week, she cited an Associated Press poll "that found how Senator Obama's support among working, hardworking Americans, white Americans, is weakening again." As Washington Post columnist Eugene Robinson wrote: "Here's what she's really saying to party leaders: There's no way that white people are going to vote for the black guy. Come November, you'll be sorry." A top Clinton adviser, speaking anonymously so he could be more frank, says the Clinton campaign has actually been holding back, for fear of alienating other Democrats. The Republicans "won't suffer from such scruples," this adviser says. Sen. John McCain himself has explicitly disavowed playing the race card or taking the low road generally. But he may not be able to resist casting doubt on Obama's patriotism. And the real question is whether he can—or really wants to—rein in the merchants of slime and sellers of hate who populate the Internet and fund the "independent expenditure" groups who exercise their freedom in ways that give a bad name to free speech.

For Obama, the challenge will be to respond quickly and surely—but without overreacting or inviting an endless cycle of recriminations. Team Obama has been a model of tight, highly efficient organization, certainly in contrast to most presidential campaigns. The few tensions that have emerged have been between those who want to stick to the high ground and those who want to fight a little dirtier. (Such debates could intensify in a hard-hitting general campaign.) The campaign has at times been a little slow to fight back. Some of this deliberation is a measure of the candidate's personality. Obama disdains cable-TV talk-show shoutfests as trivial sideshows, and he tends to discount the seriousness of campaign gaffes and flaps. As a result, he was slow to denounce the most recent round of tirades by the Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr. By failing to alert Obama to the gravity of the Wright fiasco, "I don't think we served him well," admits his chief strategist, David Axelrod.

But Team Obama has been consistently able to outstrategize the opposition, and it does have a plan for the coming mud war. In conversations with NEWSWEEK, Obama's aides have signaled their intention to put McCain on the spot. They note that McCain himself has been the victim of a smear. In the South Carolina primary in 2000, GOP operatives spread the rumor that McCain had fathered an illegitimate black child. Recently, when a reporter asked McCain, "Does it bother you at all that you might actually benefit from latent prejudice in the country?" he answered: "That would bother me a lot. That would bother me a great deal." And last week his wife, Cindy, told NBC News, "My husband is absolutely opposed to any negative campaigning at all." So if McCain's camp does try to exploit Obama's ties to the fiery Reverend Wright, the Obama-ites can question his sincerity—is he really the "Straight Talk" candidate? And if McCain can't stop others from the sort of innuendo and code that Republicans have learned to frighten voters, Obama can cast doubt on McCain's credentials as a commander in chief. ("In other words," says liberal political pundit Mark Shields, "they can say that McCain is either a hypocrite or impotent.")

Some early skirmishes reveal the strategy. In North Carolina, the state Republican Party aired a TV ad suggesting that Obama might be "too extreme" because of his ties to the Reverend Wright. McCain told the North Carolina GOP to take down the ad, but he said that he couldn't force the state party to act, and the ad stayed on the air. "I assume that if John McCain thinks it's an inappropriate ad, that he can get them to pull it down since he's their nominee and standard-bearer," Obama declared. A campaign spokesman said, "The fact that Senator McCain can't get his own party to take down this misleading personal-attack ad raises serious questions about his promise that he will run a civil, respectful campaign."

At the time of the Pennsylvania primary, the McCain campaign sent out a letter suggesting that Obama was the candidate of Hamas, the Palestinian terrorist group ("Barack Obama's foreign policy plans have even won him praise from Hamas leaders," read the letter). McCain, by contrast, portrayed himself as "Hamas's worst nightmare." (In fact, Obama and McCain have the same position on Hamas —no talks, no recognition, no outreach.) Last week Obama told CNN: "This is offensive. And I think it's disappointing because John McCain always says, 'Well, I'm not going to run that kind of politics' … For him to toss out comments like that, I think, is an example of him losing his bearings as he pursues this nomination."

Longtime McCain strategist Mark Salter quickly charged that Obama was guilty of "ageism," i.e., that the Democrat was trying to slyly slip in the issue of the Republican candidate's age with his crack about McCain's "losing his bearings." It's easy to see how the presidential campaign could swiftly descend into tit-for-tat name-calling. Obama's advisers insist that the race will be about the big issues because there are stark contrasts between the candidates on Iraq and the economy. But if McCain thinks he can't win on those issues—if the war remains unpopular and the Bush downturn goes on—he will be sorely tempted to run down his opponent. The McCain campaign is now poring over Obama's record, looking for weaknesses that can be exposed without race-baiting or hitting below the belt. They want to brand Obama as a "superduper liberal who is out of the mainstream," says one McCain adviser who did not wish to be identified discussing internal campaign strategy.

A campaign insider who declined to be identified for the same reason says McCain aides are studying a private, 52-page dossier, compiled for the aborted 2004 campaign of Illinois Republican Senate candidate Jack Ryan (slated to be Obama's opponent until disclosure of some embarrassing records related to his divorce forced him to drop out). The dossier, a copy of which was obtained by NEWSWEEK, brands Obama as "in favor of coddling sex abusers" and "shamefully soft on crime and drugs." It hits, for instance, Obama's vote in 2001 against a GOP-sponsored measure to toughen penalties against "gangbangers," pushed after a particularly brutal gang killing in Chicago. Charlie Black, McCain's top strategist, tells NEWSWEEK he had not personally reviewed the Ryan dossier, but saw no problem with using Obama's votes on justice issues in the Illinois Legislature. "What's wrong with that?" he says. (An Obama spokesman says the criticism in the dossier was "long ago debunked," and that the candidate "is supported today by law-enforcement officials across Illinois and the nation.")

McCain's top aides include some veterans of past Republican attack campaigns, like campaign strategist Steve Schmidt, who was in charge of rapid response for Bush-Cheney '04, and Black, whose experience goes all the way back to the campaigns of right-wing Sen. Jesse Helms of North Carolina. John Weaver, McCain's former chief strategist who resigned from the campaign last summer but keeps ties to McCain, suggests that McCain could try to block low-road smears. "He could say, 'If any major donors or political operators do that, then you will be persona non grata in my administration'," says Weaver. But McCain himself has said that he will not "referee" between various independent groups who always want to have their say in presidential campaigns. (The model is the notorious Swift Boat Veterans for Truth who unfairly but effectively questioned John Kerry's war record in 2004.) Black tells NEWSWEEK McCain was powerless to stop the "527s," named after the provision of the tax code that covers political expenditures by nonprofits, from running attack ads on their own. "Look, there's nothing we can do about the 527s," says Black.

Another McCain adviser, who asked for anonymity discussing internal campaign strategy, bluntly warned: "It's going to be Swift Boat times five on both sides … The candidates will both do their best publicly to mute it. But in a close race, I don't see how to shut that down." Indeed, two of the most experienced attack artists are already gearing up. Floyd Brown, who produced the infamous "Willie Horton" commercial that used race and fear of crime to drive voters away from Democratic presidential candidate Michael Dukakis in 1988, produced an ad before the North Carolina primary accusing Obama of being soft on crime. He tells NEWSWEEK that Obama is "extremely vulnerable" to questioning about his ties to Chicago fixer Tony Rezko, who has been indicted for political corruption. (Obama is not linked to any wrongdoing.) Another target is former Weather Underground member Bill Ayers, whose association with Obama will remind voters of bomb-throwing student radicals of the 1960s. "There's plenty of stuff out there," says Brown. "I'm kinda like in a candy store in this election."

Then there's David Bossie, already deep into a mudslinging campaign against Obama through a political organization called Citizens United. Bossie is planning a widespread DVD release of a documentary that will portray Obama as a "limousine, out-of-control leftist liberal … more liberal than [Vermont Sen.] Bernie Sanders, who is a socialist," Bossie tells NEWSWEEK. McCain has little leverage over Bossie, who has run ads attacking McCain as too liberal in the past.

It's possible that aiming low will backfire. In the recent special election for a solidly Republican House seat in Louisiana, the national GOP ran an ad tying the Democratic candidate, Don Cazayoux, to Obama and his allegedly "radical agenda." The Democrat won—taking away the seat from the Republicans for the first time in 33 years. The result was "a sharp wake-up call for Republicans," declared former GOP House Speaker Newt Gingrich. "The Republican brand has been so badly damaged that if the Republicans try to run an anti-Obama … anti-Reverend Wright campaign, they are simply going to fail," Gingrich wrote. "This model has already been tested with disastrous results."

Maybe so, but desperate times can call for desperate measures. With his huge Internet network of donors, Obama can raise much more money than McCain. The Republicans will need those independent expenditures to try to keep up, no matter how distasteful the attack ads they buy.

The last Democratic presidential candidate, John Kerry, dithered and failed to quickly strike back when he was attacked by the Swift Boat veterans. The Obama team says it will not make the same mistake. "You fight back aggressively and play jujitsu," says David Plouffe, Obama's campaign manager. Obama has a much more disciplined, focused team than Kerry, whose organization was prone to infighting and lacked strong leadership.

Obama has been fortunate in his senior advisers. Obama's chief strategist, David Axelrod, combines big-picture idealism and Chicago School politics of hard knocks. Plouffe is sure and steady. Having managed the successful campaign to get the mercurial Bob Torricelli elected in New Jersey to the Senate in 1996, Plouffe impressed Democratic political gurus. In 1997, Steve Elmendorf, chief of staff to former House Democratic leader Richard Gephardt, hired Plouffe as his deputy. "There are a lot of people in politics who are good strategists and there are a lot of people who are good managers," says Elmendorf. "There are not a lot of people who can do both, and David can do both." The genius of Axelrod and Plouffe was to combine astonishing (even to them) fund-raising potential on the Internet with grass-roots organizing. While Clinton was aiming for a knockout by sweeping Super Tuesday, Axelrod and Plouffe were methodically organizing a state-by-state, district-by-district strategy—including states that most political experts ignored. For example, Idaho: Obama won by 60 points and netted more delegates than Clinton took out of either Ohio or Pennsylvania.

Obama "doesn't micromanage," Axelrod tells NEWSWEEK. But, he adds, "there's never a doubt who the alpha dog is." The day after his big defeat in Ohio and his popular-vote loss in Texas, Obama traveled to the large corporate offices in Chicago that serve as his campaign headquarters. The mood was grim; they had, after all, blown their third chance to end the primary season early—after the shock of New Hampshire and the muddled results of Super Tuesday. Obama toured the office, visiting every desk to thank his mostly young staffers for their efforts and urging them to keep their chins up. Then he walked into a conference room for a far tougher two-hour conversation with his senior staff. "We rise or fall together," he started out. "I'm not pointing fingers at any single person because we all share responsibility." He talked through his own mistakes as a candidate and went around the table asking people for their input in the postmortem. Speaking calmly but intensely, he then took control to explain how he saw it. He worked his way through a detailed, handwritten list of what went right and wrong—including how they misspent time and money, how they relied too much on impersonal rallies and how the schedule was flawed.

At the end of the meeting, Obama stood up and began to walk out of the room, before wheeling around to say one more thing to his somber staff: "I'm not yelling at you and I'm not screaming. Although for $20 million for two primaries and the results we got, I could," he said, laughing. "But I'm not."

Obama's almost preternatural equanimity has helped keep his campaign on an even keel. Although he can seem slightly humorless on TV, as he is fencing with an inquiring anchorperson or debating an opponent, he has a light touch in the office, and he can laugh off adversity. Obama has shown signs of exhaustion, and he has appeared increasingly gaunt. Mocked for not finishing his waffles, he has made a joke about his newfound willingness to drink beer in blue-collar bars and sop up the gravy at working-class diners. After he lost the Pennsylvania primary to a beer-swilling, whisky-downing Hillary, Obama mordantly announced to his staff, "OK, now I'll eat anything."

Some candidates are feared and respected by their staffs, but they are very rarely liked after a few grueling months on the campaign trail. Obama seems to have retained the affection of his. As the crucial North Carolina and Indiana primaries approached, Axelrod pulled a series of all-nighters to try to close the deal. After the campaign plane landed at one brief stop in Charlotte, N.C., Obama asked how Axelrod was doing. "I'm really tired," Axelrod said. Obama put his hand on his shoulder and said, "Why don't you stay here and have a nap?" Axelrod reluctantly agreed: "You know, I think I will." To those around, it spoke to the unconventional and close partnership between the candidate and his consigliere.

On the night before Indiana and North Carolina, Axelrod appeared unusually grim and gloomy. The final night of internal polling showed Obama 12 points down in Indiana against Clinton—a disastrous collapse after two or three days of closing the gap. The campaign's pollsters cautioned that the last night's sample seemed weird and they should rely instead on the three-day rolling average of 2 points. But Axelrod feared the worst, that Wright had sunk the campaign in Indiana and possibly in North Carolina, too.

The next day, after visiting some polling stations, Obama arrived back at his hotel and stopped by the coffee shop, where he urged some curious bystanders to vote for him. When a NEWSWEEK reporter asked him about Axelrod's gloomy prognosis, Obama shrugged and said: "It is what it is. We've had a month, two months of bad stuff. It's been hard to change the storyline." He smiled and walked out to get ready for his now traditional Election Day game of basketball. If he was at all worried, as his senior staff was, he hid his concerns successfully from the outside world.

There is no ready training for commander in chief, and no real way to predict how a man or woman will perform once in the Oval Office. Campaigns can deceive voters, or at least mask shortcomings. After watching his father's triumph in 1988 and failure in 1992, George W. Bush had a good feel for the mechanics of campaigning: the importance of money, message and geography. His 2000 campaign was well managed by a tight group of loyal aides, with little infighting. It was only after he became president that voters began to grasp Bush's failings as an executive—his disdain for expert opinion, his stubborn approach to policy or rivals, his fatal lack of follow-through.

Obama, at least, seems to be more curious than the current president. Ruchi Bhowmik, a legislative counsel in Obama's Senate office, is one of the staffers whom Obama has called upon because she was too quiet in a gathering. "When he's at a meeting, he's very inclusive and a very good listener," she tells NEWSWEEK. "He's not looking to dictate what everyone is discussing, and he wants to hear what everyone is thinking. He doesn't discount things." On Capitol Hill, Senator Obama has been a foe of "knee jerk" thinking, says Bhowmik. "Obama's response is, 'Well, we've always done it that way—why?' "

Presidential campaigns may be in some ways little more than glorified stress tests, not true measures of the potential for presidential greatness. Still, they do offer significant peeks into personal character. Obama "does not get rattled," says Bhowmik. "I've never seen it." He has "grace under fire." In the coming campaign, he will need it.


He picked highly competent strategists, managers and staff. Obama's campaign seems a bit machine-like, able to save its energy for dealing with various challenges by not having to expend any on internal struggles. For all the talk about Obama being style over substance, his campaign has shown a marked capacity for dogged substance and long-term thinking, two things missing in both the Bush administration and Clinton campaign. They stayed on target and rarely wavered and also had the foresight to see the landscape as it would be weeks and months in advance. That leaked memo will turn out to be as close to the mark as anyone could possibly be that far in advance.

Obama and his campaign is filled with sharp people, and I think they're capable of winning the presidency. One person becomes president, but a lot of people are part of the campaign (and eventually, the administration). To this point, Obama has had the best staff and people at his side.

 

-----signature-----
"May you live all the days of your life"
Tracy Flick lost.
"It's kinda hard to stay the course when you've reached the end of the road and you're off-roading in a Kia."--506
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Gonk 
Registered: Jul '98
6234_GNK droid
Date Posted: 5/11 5:27pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Although, last night my dad was talking about being a bit more likely to support Obama only over the gas tax holiday.

Well, that's what I like about Obama -- these marginal things he says that are different from what I tend to hear, usually on things that are tangentally related to the immediate point, but might prove to be vital to the overall view. One thing I remember particularly was his notion of "changing the mindset that got us into war", which I thought was much more constructive than McCain, who doesn't necessarily wish to change that footing, and Clinton who said nothing about such a thing.

What he says appeals to me less than the things that Biden said on the whole, who I still think would have made the best President.

Clinton I agree is a panderer, and is so when she does not have to be. But then I actually have thought that about the Clintons for a very long time now. Probably after Bush became President, but then I was actually uninvolved in current politics in the late 90s; Monica Lewinsky failed to interest me and I was much more concerned with history & literature & star wars before 9/11 hit. Nothing much going on then, and part of me is sort wanting to go back to that as it gets weary of this "living in interesting times" bit.

McCain I don't think of as a panderer so much as he's forced into pandering. And yes, of course he's got a choice in the matter -- he could either pander, or lose. Which is sort of putting a gun to his head. Obama doesn't have to pander because he's run on something that's closer to what he actually is. McCain is in fact a lot more Liberal than he's been wont to admit to, and for all his talk of Reagan, he's closer to the wing of the party that Nixon and Ford came from than those that came in as part of the Reagan Revolution. But he's got to get those people to the polls for him if he's going to win, and thus the pandering. And that's his weakness as a candidate, the mismatch between himself and his party, which is unfortunate.

The more he panders the less I'm partial to him since it's my hope that he'll leave this behind if he actually wins office and drastically change the butt-backward Republican party into something that resembles an organization that can actually get more than one or two issues right and blow the rest. I worry that he'll be something of a puppet to his party, and that it was really his only path to the Presidency.

 

-----signature-----
What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
Shall we set out upon this sea of faces
In search of more and more and more?
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
LtNOWIS 
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 5/11 7:30pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Agreed on McCain, Gonk. Even Ronald Reagan wouldn't be acceptable to the very right-wingers who idolize him; the guy invented amnesty for illegal immigrants, for Pete's sake.

I'm hopeful that McCain won't have to toe the party line if he takes office, just as Bush disappointed conservatives regarding spending and immigration.

As for the 90s, I was in elementary school at the time, so I didn't pay too much attention to world affairs. 9/11 occurred a few days after I started middle school, and the invasion of Iraq occurred a few months before I left. We were at war for my entire high school career, and will likely still be at war when I graduate from college. So, I don't think too much about the peaceful 90s. (Although they had their share of Al Qaeda terrorist attacks.)

 

-----signature-----
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Lowbacca_1977 
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered: Jun '06
Date Posted: 5/11 7:54pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
LtNOWIS posted:
Agreed on McCain, Gonk. Even Ronald Reagan wouldn't be acceptable to the very right-wingers who idolize him; the guy invented amnesty for illegal immigrants, for Pete's sake.

To be fair, the idea was, legalise the ones here, make sure no more come. That part of the plan just never happened. Its the lack of security happening thats getting people upset because it indicates the problem isn't getting fixed.

 

Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Hammurabi 
Registered: Jan '07
44291_Han Solo
Date Posted: 5/11 8:44pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions - Date Edited: 5/11 8:45pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Hammurabi
I don't quite get it when Obama somehow becomes the candidate of shameless optimism. As far as realism goes, he's probably a notch more realistic than McCain and plenty more realistic than Hillary, who's started pandering to anybody and everybody who'll vote for her.

BTW, post number 5000 for this thread. That's pretty huge, especially considering this thread has only been around for about six months.

 

Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Gonk 
Registered: Jul '98
6234_GNK droid
Date Posted: 5/11 9:23pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions - Date Edited: 5/11 9:31pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Gonk
McCain essentially builds upon the notion -- and it is a very popular one in varying degrees -- that it is very important in how you appear to your enemy, whether that is standing up to them or the opposite "emboldening" them. Even Bob McNamara, who was the focus of "Fog of War" is still even at this late hour of his life still a partial adherent to this, although clearly not as much as McCain is.

Although I find it doubtful Obama came from the same background, I'm far more of the opinion closer to what I associate with the historian AJP Taylor; taking a more objective point of view on it, and that even this sober philosophy is too romantic -- too centered on the doer -- to be ideal for the 21st century. Clearly, there are worse viewpoints and the current President is an atrocious example; however I find that thinking of things in terms of mostly just when and how to send a message and negotiating from a position of stregth is woefully insufficient. Becuase negotiating from a position of strength can sometimes get you what you want, but usually only in the short term.

The better events of international relations since WWII were examples that I don't think adhere to the concept of one side showing they were strong to the other. The Cuban Missile Crisis, for instance, clearly was not resolved in the fashion since both sides were clearly deadlocked. The fall of Communism is also clearly not an outcome of showing strength -- it is doubtful it had anything to do with America at all, and even if it did, it was not a result of expending military force. Forcing the Soviets to keep up in an arms race has to take into account they actually fought few active wars over the time period (in fact less than the US did if I'm not mistaken) and the US made very few outright threats to any Russian territory or forces that would cause them to be any more cautious than they'd been over any point in the Cold War.

In other cases, the use of force has not resolved anything or had a very questionable cost-benefit ratio. The Israelis have been fighting for 60 years, and fight on still. WWI resolved little, and when WWII finally did resolve something, it was only at the near destruction of all parties involved... and all that had really been decided was that the Germans and French were no longer rancorous towards one another? The spontantious collapse of the Soviet Union achieved just as much if not more without a single shot.

If we keep thinking of our foreign policy in terms of how we get our opponents to react based on how we would react, that's not going to get us much of anywhere. Nations have been in the business of sending messages with military strength for centuries, and all it really gets them in the end is bankrupt, if they're lucky. That doesn't mean there's no place for the military, but that it shouldn't be a crutch for foreign policy to lean on.

And it's that -- the possibility Obama might start considering different ways to do business, that I think he's the best choice. I hold little to no hope for North Korea, but other areas like Africa and the Middle East could show a lot of change with him in the presidency.

 

-----signature-----
What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
Shall we set out upon this sea of faces
In search of more and more and more?
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
LtNOWIS 
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 5/11 11:54pm Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Gonk posted:

In other cases, the use of force has not resolved anything or had a very questionable cost-benefit ratio. The Israelis have been fighting for 60 years, and fight on still. WWI resolved little, and when WWII finally did resolve something, it was only at the near destruction of all parties involved... and all that had really been decided was that the Germans and French were no longer rancorous towards one another? The spontantious collapse of the Soviet Union achieved just as much if not more without a single shot.


Well, I'd question that statement on WWII. The United States was never near destruction. The Japanese never had a hope of invading continental North America. Even conquering China or Australia would've been extremely difficult, if not impossible. Heck, it's difficult to come up with a realistic scenario for a successful German invasion of Britain either.

Also, the destruction of the Japanese Empire and Japanese militarism was highly significant.

The destruction of German militarism and Nazism was highly significant. Germany also lost a lot of land that they're never getting back; Prussia and Koenigsberg don't exist anymore. That was pretty resolution-ish.

Other decisive uses of force since WWII: The Vietnamese unified their country through military force. First by fighting US and allied forces until we withdrew, than by invading South Vietnam in a conventional military campaign. Rhodesia was forced to accept majority rule due to the protracted black insurgency; in doing so, it effectively ceased to exist. The Arab-Israeli Wars resolved the threat that Israel's neighbors posed to it, in terms of conventional military force. They haven't tried to invade since the 70s. That is a significant shift. Had Israel's neighbors been successful, there would've been far greater consequences. The Gulf War in '91 crushed the Iraqi military, formerly a major player in the region, and liberated Kuwait. The Soviet War in Afghanistan was very emboldening for anti-Soviet forces, and led to the Taliban being in control of 90% of the nation. The Soviet threat to Afghanistan was ended forever. And so forth.

 

-----signature-----
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Gonk 
Registered: Jul '98
6234_GNK droid
Date Posted: 5/12 4:13am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Well, I'd question that statement on WWII. The United States was never near destruction. The Japanese never had a hope of invading continental North America. Even conquering China or Australia would've been extremely difficult, if not impossible. Heck, it's difficult to come up with a realistic scenario for a successful German invasion of Britain either.

Right -- but that's an accident of Geography. The only reason the US was so protected was because of the Atlantic and PAcific ocreans.

As for China, it could be argued that it almost happened; the Japanese were hammering the Chinese, and had they not been stopped, well -- I suppose that would make me admit that there is a way to get what you want out of using force: if you are willing to kill EVERYONE on the opposite side, commit genocide, I suppose by definition that would get you what you want.

Also, the destruction of the Japanese Empire and Japanese militarism was highly significant.

The destruction of German militarism and Nazism was highly significant. Germany also lost a lot of land that they're never getting back; Prussia and Koenigsberg don't exist anymore. That was pretty resolution-ish.


Right, but that's also been countered by the decline of France and Britain, and the millions of lives it took to get to that point. Take that and then consider how easy it was -- how little it cost -- for those countries to BECOME the way they were. Naziism specifically perhaps depended on specific circumstances, but if you're talking the general question of Japanese and German power as consolidated by the Kaiser and the Japanese military, that all came about pretty easily. Germany in particular went from a series of divided states (plus Prussia) into a militant nation in less than a century.

So if it takes these huge wars to change these sort of simple developments in other nations, what does that mean for the future of international relations? How many other nations will stumble into a similar situation? Worse, what if one we count among valued allies stumbles back into it? There's got to be a better way of dealing with these situations.


Other decisive uses of force since WWII: The Vietnamese unified their country through military force. First by fighting US and allied forces until we withdrew, than by invading South Vietnam in a conventional military campaign.

Sure, they succeeded. And was that worth it all in the cost/benefit analysis? I suppose it depends on which person you ask; for the sake of that distinction, millions died. They had to fight the French and then the Americans, and it took what... 25 years? More if we include the Japanese? Considering all the Vietnamese that died, and all the ones that were expelled -- wasn't there a better way to go about this? I'll admit, most of this falls on the heads of the French and Charles DuGaulle, but still; even McNamara admits that all this could have been better resolved if both sides had taken a better and more dynamic approach. Frankly, the American phase of the war could be argued to have been fought on account of a complete misunderstanding of both sides: the North Vietnamese thought the Americans wanted to colonize thier country like the French, and the Americans thought the North Vietnamese were interested in being a permanent ally and satellite of thier Communist allies against the west.

Rhodesia was forced to accept majority rule due to the protracted black insurgency; in doing so, it effectively ceased to exist.

Sure. And South Africa...? Again, other ways of going about it to get to the same place.


The Arab-Israeli Wars resolved the threat that Israel's neighbors posed to it, in terms of conventional military force. They haven't tried to invade since the 70s. That is a significant shift. Had Israel's neighbors been successful, there would've been far greater consequences.

And Israel is STILL fighting. And they still keep up thier military to be superior to thier neighbors. Thisd is precisely what I mean -- just like WWI, nothing has really been DECIDED here: even in cases where Egypt and Jordan are no longer hostile to Israel, large portions of thier populations are and seem to have every indication of continuing that trend. Meanwhile Syria remains hostile. And of course, the Arabs have hardly gotten what they wanted out of thier own similar approach to foreign policy.

The Gulf War in '91 crushed the Iraqi military, formerly a major player in the region, and liberated Kuwait.

I'll forego this example from the American POV, except to say that obviously from Saddam's POV there was a better way to have approached the situation, because force certainly didn't get him anywhere.

The Soviet War in Afghanistan was very emboldening for anti-Soviet forces, and led to the Taliban being in control of 90% of the nation. The Soviet threat to Afghanistan was ended forever. And so forth.

This is a more complex situation, because it's not clear the Soviets ever really wanted to control Afghanistan in the conventional sense any more than the Americans ever wanted to control Vietnam.

In any case what I'm saying is again not that the military and military force should never be used; certainly in the case of the Gulf War '91, the Korean War and how far the situation had degenerated in the years prior to WWII, this was needed. But then, if you look at WWII you can see precisely how failing to have a better approach to foreign policy earlier led to the situation Europe found itself in.

Sometimes this is unavoidable. Iraq in particular was left to its own devices and a strongman with no scruples to international borders took control. But this is not something that can be assumed with every situation, and there's many situations that need a more dynamic approach other than trying to phych out your opponent by projections of stength and weakeness.

 

-----signature-----
What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
Shall we set out upon this sea of faces
In search of more and more and more?
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
J-Rod 
Registered: Jul '04
19974_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 5/12 8:10am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions - Date Edited: 5/12 8:11am (1 edits total) Edited By: J-Rod
Gonk posted:
They weren't kicked out, they decided to leave. True, they were getting pushback from the regime, but this is a common misconception. The inspectors were still permitted to stay. This has been stated on these boards for many years J-Rod; why is it you're stating it the opposite way now, still? Did you not see those other posts?



I'm not sure why you make a distiction between being forced out by a lack of cooporation, intimidation, and veiled threats and being kicked out. Sure, there are others who make that distiction...but many of them were on the take from Saddam's abuse of the oil for food program.

Gonk posted:
By that definition there's got to be dozens of storm clouds in the world right now, many of them a lot more dangerous-looking than the one we're discussing.


Certainly. While that's true, you have to ask yourself two importaint questions;

1) Do we have a cease-fire agreement that hasn't been enforced with these nations?

2) Has a sworn enemy of the US used our treatment of those nations to conclude that we have lost our will to fight and that we can now be attcked without reprecussion?

Because if you can't answer yes to both of these questions then the comparison isn't close enough to stand scrutiny.

 

-----signature-----
God bless George Bush
John McCain 2008
Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are" thinking
http://www.mymonavie.com/yourjuice
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Gonk 
Registered: Jul '98
6234_GNK droid
Date Posted: 5/12 8:46am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
I'm not sure why you make a distiction between being forced out by a lack of cooporation, intimidation, and veiled threats and being kicked out. Sure, there are others who make that distiction...but many of them were on the take from Saddam's abuse of the oil for food program.

Becuase you were making the stipulation that Saddam was not contained on the international stage. And there's a big distinction between doing those things and actually kicking out the UN if you're going to make that argument.

You can say that Saddam's not following the ceasefire very well, to be sure -- even though most of the weapons had been accounted for, and the remaining that was unaccounted for was mostly stocks that would have decayed. But to take this and say it's evidence that he was not contained? I mean, Cuba falls into the same sphere if this is your standard of proof; and clearly Cuba is contained.





Certainly. While that's true, you have to ask yourself two importaint questions;

1) Do we have a cease-fire agreement that hasn't been enforced with these nations?


No I suppose not -- but then the ceasefire agreements with other nations are nothing like those with Iraq. Iraq's was much more extensive. so I fail to see your point; because Korea doesn't have the same stipulations (which by 2003 were pretty meaningless since the degree to which Iraq had complied had effectively disarmed the country and accomplished thier job) that's reason enough to disperse one storm cloud and not the other?

What if the larger one grows while getting rid of the lesser one saps your strength? What if dispersing the lesser one creates larger ones or makes other lesser ones grow?


2) Has a sworn enemy of the US used our treatment of those nations to conclude that we have lost our will to fight and that we can now be attcked without reprecussion?

What has that got to do with anything? The very same sworn enemy of the US is apt to find any reason to conclude that the US has lost thier will. By doing this you're letting THEM dictate to you thier standard of weakness... sort of like you taking them up on thier challenge of "what'sa matter? Chicken?". If it wasn't Iraq then they'd say some crap over some other location or situation. They'd say the fact America didn't invade Iraq in '91 was evidence of weakness. They'd say that America missing Quadaffi in the '80s was a weakness. They'd say America's firing tamohawks into Sudan and Afghantistan in the 90s was a weakness because they wouldn't send troops. And now that troops are in Iraq, they're still saying America is weak.

I mean, c'mon: these people are going to say the same thing no matter what you do. The real point of issue is that, I suppose, if America hadn't invaded Iraq in 2003, you would have believed them. And I don't think anyone else was, or thought the situation prior to 2003 was evidence of American weakness in any respect. If that's what you thought, that's unfortunate -- because anyone who equates restraint with weakness is tempting themselves with a rude awakening.


Because if you can't answer yes to both of these questions then the comparison isn't close enough to stand scrutiny.

Sure it is. Why not?

 

-----signature-----
What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
Shall we set out upon this sea of faces
In search of more and more and more?
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
J-Rod 
Registered: Jul '04
19974_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 5/12 8:55am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
If it wasn't Iraq then they'd say some crap over some other location or situation. They'd say the fact America didn't invade Iraq in '91 was evidence of weakness. They'd say that America missing Quadaffi in the '80s was a weakness.

PPOR

 

-----signature-----
God bless George Bush
John McCain 2008
Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are" thinking
http://www.mymonavie.com/yourjuice
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Gonk 
Registered: Jul '98
6234_GNK droid
Date Posted: 5/12 9:05am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
PPOR??? WHAT?

Are you seriously contending that Al Qaida would actually start saying publically "y'know what... after seeing what America did to Saddam Hussein... we have concluded that they are pretty tough after all".

I mean, there's your proof right there. America smashed Saddam Hussein and Al Qaida went in right away. Shock and awe? Didn't fase 'em.

How are you going to then take what happened in the aftermath of Iraq and then say Al Qaida would not come up with some other excuse to say that America is weak, yada, yada, yada. They're fanatics; they'll see what they want to see.

Cripes, look at Hezbollah; they're far less fanatical than Al Qaida, and they've seen Israel smack down it's foes time and again. But they're still they're going on and on about how weak Israel is, they'll fight them all over the place, etc.

People who want to fight you are going to fight you no matter what you do, and if you prove them wrong they're going to move those goal posts quicker than Hillary Clinton on a less than super Tuesday.

 

-----signature-----
What shall we do to fill the empty spaces
Where waves of hunger gnaw?
Shall we set out upon this sea of faces
In search of more and more and more?
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
J-Rod 
Registered: Jul '04
19974_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 5/12 9:09am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
I mean, there's your proof right there. America smashed Saddam Hussein and Al Qaida went in right away. Shock and awe? Didn't fase 'em.

Sure. 'Cause they thought that we wouldn't have the guts for a protracted fight. Case in point: while they used our treatment of Saddam as a rational that they couls get away with 9/11, a-Q used 'Nam as rational that we could demoralized without being defeated.

With a-Q rapidly loosing Iraq, do you think it was a good move?

 

-----signature-----
God bless George Bush
John McCain 2008
Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are" thinking
http://www.mymonavie.com/yourjuice
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Jediflyer 
Registered: Dec '01
6475_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 5/12 9:24am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
Al Qaeda would be more rapidly losing Iraq if we withdrew.

 

-----signature-----
Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it - Mark Twain
There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
J-Rod 
Registered: Jul '04
19974_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 5/12 11:05am Subject: RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions - Date Edited: 5/12 11:06am (2 edits total) Edited By: J-Rod
Jediflyer posted:
Al Qaeda would be more rapidly losing Iraq if we withdrew.



I dunno Flyer. I think that there is too much daylight between the views you and Gonk have, and the ones I hold to find common ground. sad

On the lighter side, sure it's hard for McCain to keep all the terror groups straight, but it seems that BHO can't even remember that we only have 50 states. laugh

Honoring the 57 states

Obama, speaking at the start of a two-day swoop through Oregon, let it slip that during this marathon 16-month Democratic presidential nomination struggle, he had already visited 57 states with one more to go.

That's not counting Alaska and Hawaii, he said, which his staff decided aren't important enough to visit yet.

Has this aging freshman senator -- he'll be almost 60 in 13 years -- lost his bearings? Obama's gaffe caused a noticeable stir online during the day, and even the respected Marc Ambinder at The Atlantic anticipated that the political media would kindly write off the Democrat's misstatement to fatigue. But he wrote that if, say, the Republican nominee-to-be had uttered the same silly flub, it would surely be added to eager suspicions of senility.

Besides trying to noodle out what the new states are, some clever campaign folks over at the Suitably Flip blog got to thinking right away.

And they've now unveiled a new patriotic lapel pin that anyone can wear with pride -- even, say, a Harvard-educated senator from Illinois who's been trying to make a point about opposing a war before it even started.



tongue

 

-----signature-----
God bless George Bush
John McCain 2008
Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are" thinking
http://www.mymonavie.com/yourjuice
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History