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Topic:
The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Darth Mischievous
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
5/15 9:49pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Bush's remarks could have applied to either former President Jimmy Carter or Barack Obama. It probably would have been better politically for Obama to agree with the sentiment, instead of the overt indignation. It would have disarmed the argument completely.
Obama would be foolish to stick to his platform of unconditionally meeting terror regimes at the Presidential level. I agree about hardline diplomatic negotiations through lower channels, but not done by the President himself without precondition.
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As I previously pointed out to V before Tuesday, Obama got wiped out in W. Virginia. With Edwards' convenient (and low risk) endorsement of Obama, the press was all too happy to get off the implications of a 41 point landslide loss to move on to the Edwards endorsement. It doesn't remove the fact that Obama has major weaknesses in pulling in those outside of his base, as his base has shrunk from Iowa to W. Virginia.
McCain himself will not only have a tough time because of the Republican brand, but also because the mainstream press will certainly turn on him when their dream candidate is officially nominated. The only hope for the GOP in November is the Presidency. They're going to get wiped out in Congress. If there is one Republican that could work with a heavily Democratic Congress, it's McCain. I don't think there is another Republican at this time that could.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/15 9:50pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Gonk, that last correction covers more what I'm getting at. Had Obama just said that he disagreed that dealing with rouge governments was appeasement, and simply contested Bush's views rather than presume it was talking about him, then it would be a different matter to me. It'd be different opinions, but not what seemed like arrogance to me.
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Blue_Jedi33
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
5/15 9:53pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/15 9:54pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Blue_Jedi33
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Oh Obama is just itching to get into it with Bush, it only helps him in November.
He can go toe to toe with Bush and then ties McCain to Bush, if it flies with the voters McCain is toast.
Bush isn't helping McCain by taking on Obama, not with a 70% disapproval rating.
When you have freinds like that who need enemies. The GOP is in serious trouble at every level of government.
There was man that tried to save his party but they rejected him, and so they will be wiped out next round of elections.
Actually it's already starting see below.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/05/14/miss.election/index.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/14/AR2008051403611.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/15/us/politics/15repubs.html?ex=1368590400&en=b4743404f3da70bb&ei=5124
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LtNOWIS
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:06pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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DarthKarde posted:
I remain convinced that McCain will pick a VP to appeal to evangelicals. It might not be Huckabee but it will be someone like him. The recent primaries show that McCain still has problems with the base which need addressing.
Huckabee is too (fiscally) liberal to help out among a lot of conservative activists. It's always jarring when people say "Huckabee's way too liberal," but it's actually a pretty widespread feeling, and fairly accurate.
Lord_Vivec posted:
I would like to argue that our employ of Blackwater is employing terrorist and Abu Gharaib is terrorism as well, but I have a chem lab. I'll discuss this more in three hours.
What does torture have to do with terrorism? The North Vietnamese weren't terrorists, nor were the Japanese. (The degree to which we do that stuff not being relevant here.)
And calling Blackwater terrorists is also nonsensical. Their mission is to protect diplomats and the like. Perfectly legit and whatnot. The only problem is questionable discipline and oversight. When they shoot people unjustly, it's not something the US government wants to happen, and it's not motivated by anything coherent.
Gonk posted:
LT (hope you don't mind me referring to you as that), I'll have to get to your points later. I'm working on a side project outside of work right now. .net-tastic!
Sounds good. I'm real busy too right now. I think we agree more than we might think.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
5/15 10:55pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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So blackwater killing innocent Iraqi civilians is not terrorism?
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Obama/Biden '08
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chibiangi
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:13pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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No. Terrorist acts are done with a political agenda. Blackwater guards or whatever they are called might be gun happy idiots but that doesn't make them terrorists.
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mujaki na kao de boku ni hohoemu
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/15 11:19pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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chibiangi posted:
No. Terrorist acts are done with a political agenda. Blackwater guards or whatever they are called might be gun happy idiots but that doesn't make them terrorists.
Agreed. Also doesn't mean its therefore acceptable, of course.
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JediSmuggler
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
5/16 1:17am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Jediflyer posted:
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
I still think the most foolish part of this whole story with Bush's statement is that Obama thinks this is all about him.
Well, it is all about him, since Obama is the loudest/most prominent voice in the U.S. right now pushing this issue.
There is also a Youtube clip where Obama says he would meet with Ahmadinejad without preconditions.
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All they managed to do was to end up dying tired.
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JediSmuggler
Registered:
Jun '99
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Date Posted:
5/16 1:46am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Gonk, that last correction covers more what I'm getting at. Had Obama just said that he disagreed that dealing with rouge governments was appeasement, and simply contested Bush's views rather than presume it was talking about him, then it would be a different matter to me. It'd be different opinions, but not what seemed like arrogance to me.
Either that, or the comments were accurate. Given his past statements about being willing to meet with Ahmadinejad, I think this was a man who just saw his approach to foreign policy described accurately, and knows it won't sell.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/16 3:55am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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From Cracked.com, I offer the following:
http://cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/wong/5-15-08/Jono1b.jpg
From their contest here:
http://www.cracked.com/article_16263_campaigns-candidates-wish-they-could-run.html
Personally I think 2 and 3 were the best of the lot.
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
5/16 4:27am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Bush's remarks could have applied to either former President Jimmy Carter or Barack Obama. It probably would have been better politically for Obama to agree with the sentiment, instead of the overt indignation. It would have disarmed the argument completely.
And
Gonk, that last correction covers more what I'm getting at. Had Obama just said that he disagreed that dealing with rouge governments was appeasement, and simply contested Bush's views rather than presume it was talking about him, then it would be a different matter to me. It'd be different opinions, but not what seemed like arrogance to me.
I dunno, I guess I'm just annoyed at the indignation at Obama's apparent indignation.
Whoever the President was talking about, it seems that it was most likely an American (the major figures of nations against the Iraq War are now out of power), so one way or the other an attack on either Obama or Carter wasn't the best way for the President of the United States to go conducting himself.
But Obama -- whose arrogance apparently flows off the page...  ... is apparently to be taken to task for his reaction. Whatever.
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Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
5/16 4:51am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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JediSmuggler posted:
Either that, or the comments were accurate. Given his past statements about being willing to meet with Ahmadinejad, I think this was a man who just saw his approach to foreign policy described accurately, and knows it won't sell.
Actually, he knows it will sell, which is why he is so gladly jumping on Bush over the issue.
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Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it - Mark Twain
There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/16 6:00am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/16 6:02am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
J-Rod
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Jabba-wocky, Thank you for your last post. While I still don't agree, I can at least understand your point. (In the end, isn't that what we are here for? To understand?)
But as I said, I don't agree with you. I take Ahmadinejad at his word. He wants the destruction of Israel. He wants nuke tech. It is, IMO, foolish to draw any but the most plain of conclusions.
Negotiations never works. Those who want war will have it unless they are incapible of waging it. It goes back to more than just Hitler. That's just the most glaring and obvious example of what happens when you try to talk to true real life war mongers.
It never works.
Let's look at North Korea. They also wanted nuclear "power." We made a deal. We talked. We..."negotiated." They now have nuke weapons.
Most recently Israel "negotiated" with Palistine. They gave up land. Seen as Israelli weakness the Palistinians elected Hezbola as thier new government. Things didn't get better. They got worse.
There are literally dozens of examples in just the 20th Century alone.
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Darth-Ghost
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
5/16 7:25am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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J-Rod posted:
Negotiations never works. Those who want war will have it unless they are incapible of waging it. It goes back to more than just Hitler. That's just the most glaring and obvious example of what happens when you try to talk to true real life war mongers.
It never works.
Let's look at North Korea. They also wanted nuclear "power." We made a deal. We talked. We..."negotiated." They now have nuke weapons.
Most recently Israel "negotiated" with Palistine. They gave up land. Seen as Israelli weakness the Palistinians elected Hezbola as thier new government. Things didn't get better. They got worse.
There are literally dozens of examples in just the 20th Century alone.
Yes, it does work. It seems you are the one wants war.
To clear up other things in your post, we started negotiations again with North Korea AFTER the bomb test, when Bush changed his mind and put a new guy in who would negotiate more, and they are very slowly showing some progress. The Gaza strip is Hamas which was elected and who you probably mean, the West Bank is under another government headed by Abbas (Fatah I think), Hezbollah is the political organization in Lebanon. It's not like Israel is without any blame, they are still building new settlements and grabbing some land with their fence, or so Palestinians have said.
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J-Rod
Registered:
Jul '04
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Date Posted:
5/16 7:33am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
- Date Edited:
5/16 7:33am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
J-Rod
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To clear up other things in your post, we started negotiations again with North Korea AFTER the bomb test, when Bush changed his mind and put a new guy in who would negotiate more, and they are very slowly showing some progress.
Oooops, you are right about my Hezbolla/Hamas gaff. But the "negotiations" with N Korea I was refurring to took place in the 90's. 
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God bless George Bush John McCain 2008 Darth_wanderguard :"Maybe you're not quite as crazy as people say you are"
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