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Topic:
The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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somethingfamiliar
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
7/5 8:39pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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There's a whole book on just this topic called Deer Hunting With Jesus by Joe Bageant. His website features various essays on - avert your eyes! - class war in America, particularly as it relates to the much-maligned redneckus Americanus.
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I'm not a quitter, but that human pile of garbage would make Satan weep.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
7/5 9:25pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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The macho culture that seems to come from white men as a group disgusts me sometimes.
I will admit I am not all that familiar with Mexicans, but I haven't seen anything to suggest they are much different than the Dominican males I am more familiar with.
And after seeing that example, the white men I have ever met in my life are paragons of equality and respect towards women. Sure there are bad things about a "macho culture," but quite frankly what I have seen from the Latin community is that we have nothing on their machismo.
The problem is so many people like you have this caricature of “rednecks” when I am sure there are plenty of people like me who in no ways consider themselves “hicks,” yet still enjoy things like shooting guns.
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A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
Theodore Roosevelt
We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
7/5 10:12pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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I think with regard to this, I'll just repost what I did over in JCC. It's not that Obama's new plan is fundamentally different than his old plan. Or that it represents a massive shift.
However, the problem that presents itself to Obama is that this isn't "new information." The data that Obama is now using to formulate his "revised Iraq plan" has been available since Feb, 2007 and onward. Now, granted, he was framing his old policy based more on primary concerns in order to distinguish himself from Clinton, but I think it would have benefited him to not be so one sided.
If Obama was allowed to chastize Clinton (and by default, McCain) for being dillusional about the improving situation in Iraq during the primary, it seems unfair that he is now using that exact same information, but it's being justified away as him reacting to fresh information. It's not a case of new information being presented.
It looks like the most successful policy in Iraq thus far has been to listen to the commanders on the ground and to target the US response in Iraq based on the needs of the Iraqi troops themselves. McCain nailed this issue long ago (and criticized Bush for not doing it sooner) while Clinton realized this during the primary.
Obama was the only candidate to stick to an arbitrary withdrawl plan, regardless of the variables, and has only now come around to the strategic concerns that exist in Iraq.
The cynic in me might suggest that Obama's revision might be due the fact that Iraq isn't such a "wedge issue" anymore, and the latest poll indicates that although the public is still leary about Iraq, 6 in 10 think that a withdrawl would be a mistake. But that's not what politics is about, is it?
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Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
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Peter Shoomaker
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
7/5 10:17pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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And I'll post sort of what I did in the JCC: 44, are you at all focusing on anything that doesn't have to do with Iraq, or is it the be-all, end-all for you this year?
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"The Obama Car will be fueled by FISA amendments and emit civil liberties for exhaust." A-B
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Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
7/5 10:21pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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I don't mind the focus on Iraq, but it would be nice if Mr44 wouldn't continue to assert Obama has changed his position.
And its not like I don't disagree with Obama claim he doesn't flip flop; his turnaround on FISA was a complete mess, both in terms of politics and policy. But he hasn't done anything of the kind with Iraq.
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Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it - Mark Twain
There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
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LtNOWIS
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
7/6 1:11am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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In fairness to Obama, he always said he'd leave some forces in Iraq to fight terrorism, whatever that means. This latest shift or whatever brings him more in line with my views on the war, so it was welcome news for me.
KnightWriter posted:
I didn't really care for what The Economist had to say, despite their analysis being on target, I'm sure. I guess I see white men as a class as embodying some of the worst of the United States, the "tough guy" garbage, the idea that strength and security will do anything for us. The macho culture that seems to come from white men as a group disgusts me sometimes.
Eh. I wouldn't even call white men in America a coherent cultural or socioeconomic group. A rich guy living in Long Island and a poor guy in rural Tennessee don't have much in common, any more than they do with anyone else in the United States. The two most right-wing and militaristic people I know are both Asian Americans, and the most left-wing pacifistic people are all white guys.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
7/6 4:00am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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And I'll post sort of what I did in the JCC: 44, are you at all focusing on anything that doesn't have to do with Iraq, or is it the be-all, end-all for you this year?
Be all, end all? Are you focusing on anything else this year yourself, or just the hyperbole?
I first posted a link the night of the 3rd after Obama made his announcement. It's only now just the morning of the 6th, a whopping 2.5 days later. It's just the current line of discussion. I'm sure a new week will bring a new topic.
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Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
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Peter Shoomaker
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DeathStar1977
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
7/6 8:51am
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Mr44
I think you're being overly analytical when it comes to Obama and Iraq. As has been stated, I think his statement regarding Iraq is reasonable and doesn't really affect his overall policy.
All of the promises of 'bringing the troops home immediately!' or 'we are staying until victory!' are unrealistic nonsense. IMHO the only main difference between Obama and McCain is that Obama would be more likely to end the war as it is now before McCain would. But even that is questionable.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
7/6 5:44pm
Subject:
RE: The 2008 US Elections: Discussion, Opinion, Predictions
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Fresh thread coming shortly
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