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Topic:
History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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Ki_Undi_Mundi
Registered:
Jul '06
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Date Posted:
11/16/07 6:27pm
Subject:
History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
- Date Edited:
11/16/07 6:28pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Ki_Undi_Mundi
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This is the History Discussion Thread! Let's start off with the fall of the Byzantine Empire. Why did it fall? What's your opinion of the Western Empire and it's influence, and what is your opinion on the influence of the Byzantine Empire?
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unknowndarth
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
11/17/07 8:39am
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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Ki_Undi_Mundi posted:
This is the History Discussion Thread! Let's start off with the fall of the Byzantine Empire. Why did it fall? What's your opinion of the Western Empire and it's influence, and what is your opinion on the influence of the Byzantine Empire?
Don't call it the "Byzantine" Empire,it was a greek-speaking roman empire.
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Ki_Undi_Mundi
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Jul '06
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Date Posted:
11/17/07 8:45am
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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The Byzantine Empire, is the name of the Eastern Empire.
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unknowndarth
Registered:
Sep '06
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Date Posted:
11/17/07 8:46am
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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Ki_Undi_Mundi posted:
The Byzantine Empire, is the name of the Eastern Empire.
Nobody in the Empire or abroad used the term,it was invented by 19th century historians.
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GrandAdmiralPelleaon
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
11/17/07 9:57am
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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Hmm, is this one of those threads where people are going to suggest historical theories that are already outdated and have been for decades?
Also, "why" did the Byzantine fall, that's an immensely complex question. I mean, sure, you can just go to the direct reason, 'cause they lost their battle with the Ottomans and were assimilated, duh.
If you really want to go complex, then there's a mix of socio-economical reason, as well as international politics, the crusades, which also relate with theological issues like the great schism within the Church etc.
I haven't studied in detail though, so I won't claim to be an expert on the matter. I've only got the cursory knowledge that any university student that took a course in medieval history would have as far as Byzantine is concerned.
I'd prefer to discuss the Barbary Pirate Republics of North Africa, as I'm currently writing an article for a Student Magazine about the Republic of Salé...
If you want to tie it into modern discussion, it was one of the most advanced states as far as liberty goes in the World at it's time. Certainly far more advanced than any Christian state at the time. Who says there was no enlightment in the Islamic world? :0
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
11/17/07 12:06pm
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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Guys, don't derail his thread. The current topic is just to start things off. Other areas can certainly be added as part of the natural course of the thread.
Ki, it would help if you added in your own theories to give your thread a foundation. Typically, if you ask an open ended "why" question, this is the result. Is there a direction you would like to take this?
For others, it also helps if one's post is comprised of more than the opening sentence in the Wikipedia article.
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Ki_Undi_Mundi
Registered:
Jul '06
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Date Posted:
11/17/07 1:50pm
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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I mean, of course they lost the battle with the Ottomans. I'm not really an expert either, but I can say that they were pretty well off of an Empire.
I would also like to point out that the Western Empire fell rather quickly compared to the Eastern one.
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
11/17/07 2:16pm
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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The West had become poor compared to the East, and has lost most of its sense of unity. Basically one could say people had become less vested in thier empire and were sort of "screwing the pooch" -- they didn't want to pay taxes, serve in the army, etc.
As for the East, I think there were a couple of attempts to try and reclaim everything, but the appearance of Islam on the scene pretty much smashed all that. They lost thier Arabian lands for good -- the Crusades didn't exactly give them back -- and eventually it swallowed them.
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GrandAdmiralPelleaon
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
11/17/07 2:18pm
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
- Date Edited:
11/17/07 4:01pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Mr44
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They lost to the Ottomans after they had seriously been weakend by the Western powers who sacked Constantinopel in 1204 and made it a Latin kingdom during the 4th crusade... you know, Emperor Baldwin of Flanders and all that. They managed to re-take Constantinopel in the end, but at a serious cost, and due to the schism, the inaction of most Western Christian states, the under-population of what was left of the Empire coupled with a strong forward push by the Ottomans ...
It's not like there is a lot of doubt about the causes of the fall ...
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
11/17/07 4:04pm
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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Remember to keep on the current topic. The last couple of posts have had a nice, basic focus to get things going.
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GrandAdmiralPelleaon
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
11/18/07 1:31am
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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Wait, why did you edit that last part out of my post? It is important if you're trying to understand the history of the Western Roman Empire to keep in mind the continuity of history, it's not like the Empire just rolled up and disappeared.
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Ki_Undi_Mundi
Registered:
Jul '06
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Date Posted:
11/19/07 9:00am
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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I agree.
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
11/19/07 9:08am
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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Probably it was done for phrasing concerns or something. '44 will be by to explain at some point, most likely.
Here's a thought though: at the point of the fall, was the Eastern Empire really any longer -- over the centuries of change of religion, culture, location, ethnic makeup, etc -- any longer recognizable as the "Roman Empire"?
Not to mention, although thier claim was the most sound, they weren't the only ones to lay claim to the Roman epoch. What's that old Mike Myers gag: "The Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Discuss."
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
11/19/07 10:29am
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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Probably it was done for phrasing concerns or something. '44 will be by to explain at some point, most likely.
In PM, sure.
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Christos
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
11/20/07 2:26pm
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
- Date Edited:
11/20/07 2:27pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Christos
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Gonk posted:
Probably it was done for phrasing concerns or something. '44 will be by to explain at some point, most likely.
Here's a thought though: at the point of the fall, was the Eastern Empire really any longer -- over the centuries of change of religion, culture, location, ethnic makeup, etc -- any longer recognizable as the "Roman Empire"?
I think the influence of the Greek language and culture is a characteristic that made the Eastern Empire less 'Roman'. Remembering that the geographical area it covered was inhabited by Greek speakers - this being a result of Alexander's invasion and the hellenistc period that followed.
NOTE: Apologies for the short post, I actually have an exam today and this is my idea of 'quality' procrastination.
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Ki_Undi_Mundi
Registered:
Jul '06
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Date Posted:
11/22/07 2:52pm
Subject:
RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
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I agree, but it also had qualities of the Roman Empire. It was basically the Eastern half of the Roman Empire, even though it spoke Greek and had a sightly different religion ( Greek Orthodox I belive ). In my opinion, it was by far more power than the west.
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