Author Topic: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
Katana_Geldar 
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered: Mar '03
46078_Padme Jedi
Date Posted: 11/22/07 8:50pm Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
One thing we have to bear in mind in the Eastern and Western Empires is the different versions of Christianity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it was in the 1120's that the church split between east and west? In the middle ages, nearly every second thing you say is about religion as it was like that back then.

 

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Obi Anne 
Title: FanForce RSA
Europe

Registered: Nov '98
8066_Danni Quee
Date Posted: 11/23/07 2:24am Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
In reality the Church had split long before that, but it was just around then that the pope and the patriarch started banning each other and proclaiming the other to be heretics. Also if you are talking about the Byzantine Empire as still being the Roman empire in the 15th century, does that mean that Russia would still be the Roman empire until 1918, since the Russian czar claimed to have taken over the Empire after the fall of Constantinople?

 

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Gonk 
Registered: Jul '98
6234_GNK droid
Date Posted: 11/23/07 5:27am Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
That's one mobile Empire.

 

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DroidGeneral 
Registered: Jun '05
6649_OOM-9
Date Posted: 11/23/07 11:39am Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages - Date Edited: 11/23/07 11:39am (1 edits total) Edited By: DroidGeneral
unknowndarth posted:
Ki_Undi_Mundi posted:
The Byzantine Empire, is the name of the Eastern Empire.

Nobody in the Empire or abroad used the term,it was invented by 19th century historians.


Its still sounds cool. tongue

 

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Ki_Undi_Mundi 
Registered: Jul '06
40333_Yoda and Clone
Date Posted: 11/23/07 12:05pm Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
I think Gual songs cool too, the Roman Province.

 

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GrandAdmiralJello 
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC

Registered: Nov '00
44644_Imperial Laurels
Date Posted: 11/25/07 2:10am Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages - Date Edited: 11/25/07 2:16am (2 edits total) Edited By: GrandAdmiralJello
Why was I not notified? plain

At any rate, I think it's a tremendously simplistic question to ask "Why did the Eastern Empire fall?" The reasons are multiple and legion and I don't think that any single incident can be isolated as the direct cause of the fall, especially with an empire as enduring and strong as the Eastern Roman Empire.

The contributing factors (a far more appropriate term) could include but are not limited to:

  • Lack of religious unification (various stresses between the Antiochene, Carthaginian, and Alexandrine sees)

  • Financial difficulties associated with Justinian's attempted reconquest of the West and the subsequent Persian and Slavic invasions of the East

  • The wars against the Goths in Italy actually served to further de-Romanize Italy and help papal independance, as the Goths were still nominally acknowledging the supremacy of the Eastern Emperor while they created a Romano-Gothic culture

  • The massive Arab conquests following right after the Empire just been exhausted from pounding the Sassanids into dust

  • More religious problems that led the Christian "heretics" of the Levant and North Africa to feel more comfortable under Arab rule than Roman governance

  • The loss of the exarchates of Carthage and Alexandria leading to massive food shortages

  • The loss of the Levant leading to trade shortages and naval weakness (later made up by the further development of Constantinopolis)

  • Consistent backstabbing in the imperial court and frequent changes in state policy

  • The disasterous defeat at Manzikert, sending the Empire's prime recruitment area (Anatolia and some of Ionia) to the Turks. Notably, this loss was directly due to backstabbing in the court.

  • The loss of the exarchate of Ravenna to papal forces and the loss of Southern Italy and Sicily to the Normans

  • The loss of southern Spain to the Moors, though at least they destroyed the Visigoths in the process

  • Imperious dealings with western European monarchs left them unwilling to aide the Empire when necessary

  • The rift with the papacy also allowed western powers to start setting their eyes on Constantinopolis, directly leading to...

  • The Fourth Crusade

  • The Latin Empire and the dismantling of the Greek themes

  • The incomplete restoration of the Empire under the Palæologui with rivals in Morea and elsewhere

  • Yet more religious issues: the unwillingness of the Greek populace to submit to papal authority in order to safe the Empire. They would prefer their orthodoxy under the rule of another rather than political freedom and reunification with the Catholic Church

  • Generally being too good a price to warrant any peace from the Ottomans as well as being too important a symbol to spare in Trebizond


I could probably add several more reasons to this list, but I'm getting rather tired and I imagine you get the point. Each of these factors contributed and could be discussed at great length, but there was no single cause of the Empire's fall, really.

Still, the fall of Trapezus/Trebizond constituted the end of nearly 3,000 years of continual Roman government. Though it can be very fairly argued that the Empire took on a medieval Greek outlook after Heraclius, it remains that there was continuity of government up until that point: whereafter the Tsars of Russia took advantage of translatio imperii from Sophia Palælogina, it does not constitute a direct line by any means.

Even to its very end, the Eastern Empire was very much an extension of classical antiquity to the medieval age and beyond: in it we could see the survival of the vibrant ancient city, the medieval age of vassalage, and the first real nation state in Europe.




As for nomenclature... the "Byzantines" themselves called themselves "Rhomaloi" or "Romans." They called their land the "Basileia Rhomaion" or "Romania" meaning the "Empire of the Romans." The Catholics tended to call it the "Empire of the Greeks" while the Arabs termed them "Romans"--their lands were known to the Turks as "Rum" or "Rumelia" respectively.

It's worth noting that the city was still called Constantinopolis subsequent to the Ottoman capture of it, and the city wasn't renamed Istanbul until the Turkish Republic was created in the 1920s. But even that name still comes from a common Greek phrase "In the City". Constantinopolis, of course, was commonly referred to as "The City" (Polis) just as Roma was commonly referred to by the same in Latin (Urbs).

Finally, I'd highly recommend The Alexiad by HIH Princess Anna Comnena--she's a writer of the highest talents and erudite to the greatest degree. Her prose is just a pleasure to read. happy

 

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unknowndarth 
Registered: Sep '06
41195_Rakatan
Date Posted: 11/25/07 5:31am Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages - Date Edited: 11/25/07 5:31am (1 edits total) Edited By: unknowndarth
Before his death Andreas Paleologos sold the imperial title to Ferdinad II of Aragon.
Does that mean that the Kingdom of Spain is the heir of the Roman Empire?

 

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Katana_Geldar 
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU
Registered: Mar '03
46078_Padme Jedi
Date Posted: 11/27/07 7:23pm Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
Anna Commana was the daughter of Alexis I, wasn't she, during the first Crusade of 1097? That book was on my toget list when I was planning on researching the First Crusade.

The Fourth Crusade, was that the one where they gave up on Jerusalem and just attacked Byzantium?

 

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Gonk 
Registered: Jul '98
6234_GNK droid
Date Posted: 11/28/07 7:13am Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
That's correct. I believe it had to do with the Venitians having designs on the city and the Crusaders needing to borrow money and services from them in order to get to the holy land -- which in the end never happened.

 

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Ki_Undi_Mundi 
Registered: Jul '06
40333_Yoda and Clone
Date Posted: 12/5/07 5:21pm Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
yes, that is correct.

 

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Darth_Gangrenous 
Title: •Teh-Mole's Game Grinch
•Retired StLFF CR

Registered: Jun '05
41175_Target System
Date Posted: 12/14/07 6:39pm Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
I helped derail a thread in the JCC, I got Jello on the subject of Rome and Greece and he directed me here to discuss ancient history. grin

After Jello's post, I'm a bit hypnotized , which is a good thing for a change. I don't recall if he mentioned this in his post but internal strife and being over extended on supplies needed to maintain an empire helped to play a part in it's fall.

*makes a note to get and read The Alexiad*

 

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GrandAdmiralJello 
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC

Registered: Nov '00
44644_Imperial Laurels
Date Posted: 12/18/07 3:20pm Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages - Date Edited: 12/18/07 3:20pm (2 edits total) Edited By: GrandAdmiralJello
Katana_Geldar posted:
Anna Commana was the daughter of Alexis I, wasn't she, during the first Crusade of 1097? That book was on my toget list when I was planning on researching the First Crusade.



Anna Comnena (Αννε Κομνενε) was, yes.

She's a historian of surpassing ability and knowledge.

 

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Darth McClain 
Registered: Feb '00
46133_Talon Squad
Date Posted: 1/10 6:11pm Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
GrandAdmiralJello posted:

It's worth noting that the city was still called Constantinopolis subsequent to the Ottoman capture of it, and the city wasn't renamed Istanbul until the Turkish Republic was created in the 1920s. But even that name still comes from a common Greek phrase "In the City". Constantinopolis, of course, was commonly referred to as "The City" (Polis) just as Roma was commonly referred to by the same in Latin (Urbs).



Yep, right on. The Turkish is a corruption of the Greek phrase "in the city". I was there this past summer for a bout a week, and parts of it are quite nice. There is not a ton left from the Byzantines, but there are a few. The Hagia Sophia is still around (that's a whole other can of worms...), as is the Basilica Cistern. This is a little bit of an aside, but it is really interesting to see old Byzantine/Ottoman cities today. Thessaloniki/Salonika (in Greece) and Istanbul were linked for years under both empires. Today, their populations couldn't be more different. The Ottomans like to advertise the fact that they were, in many ways, the the successors of Rome and the "Byzantine" Empires, while the northern Greeks like to downplay their history under the Ottomans (especially in Northern Greece, where Alexander the Great is king). Next semester, I'm taking a class about Byzantium and the rise of Islam. Should be really interesting stuff.

 

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MasterEric 
Registered: Dec '07
7965_Qui-Gon Jinn
Date Posted: 1/20 10:46pm Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages - Date Edited: 1/20 10:48pm (1 edits total) Edited By: MasterEric
Seeing Byzantium discussed brings warm feelings to my heart. happy

Seriously though, as mentioned previously the answer to the question posted is one of incredible complexity. I don't want to post my thoughts on the various reasons as that would take way too long, suffice to say that all empires decline and fall, byzantium was no different.

The major ones in my eyes are its central position geographically, it has plenty of advantages (trade routes and such) but it also means you'll have plenty of enemies to fight. The fourth crusade, angry was pretty much a death sentence. The empire had the potential to survive even after it, there were some quality emperors yet to reign, however the civil war of the johns in the 14th century all but did it. After that it was pretty much a matter of time before the end came, one of the ironies of history that emperors like Manuel II and Konstantine XI were the ones who had to endure it, what might have been if they had been born at an earlier date... One could go as far back as the reign of Justinian and see cracks there; enter the slavs, allowing the limes on the arabian border to decay, neglecting of alliances, all allowing the tidal wave of Islam to take all of egypt and the levant. Obviously, the empire did recover from that but at a high price, the entry of the turks is probably the most obvious turning point. Manzikert, but more importantly the useless emperors who ruled after Basil II up to Manzikert were a huge factor in the loss of the anatolian interior. And on and on and on.

What is truly amazing about the byzantine empire is its remarkable ability to roll with the punches and evolve/adapt. I honestly cannot think of another state that ever came close to showing the survivability of byzantium.

Edited for grammar.

 

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Darth McClain 
Registered: Feb '00
46133_Talon Squad
Date Posted: 1/23 11:10am Subject: RE: History Discussion: Ancient Times, The Dark Ages, and The Middle Ages
Byzantium did do a great job of adapting. It changed, but stayed the same for a very long time. I'm taking a class about Byzantium and Islam (loving called "Byzlam") this semester. It will be a very good class. We get to read Procpoius' The Secret History (I forget the name in Latin off the top of my head), and it'll be fun.

 

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