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Topic:
The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
1/24 3:43pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Scattering cash
Following up on ShaneP's post:
"Critics worry that this will only delay a necessary correction in the housing market, but they will almost certainly be ignored."
Sigh.
ES
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In this truth he knew himself to be.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
1/24 4:17pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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That's a good rundown on the situation. But this is the part where they punted:
Whether the stimulus will prevent a recession or merely delay it is anyone’s guess.
Give me a @#&*%&* break! They know the answer. And it won't even be passed until mid-February at the earliest.
"Prevent a recession" Are they kidding?
A: It's not enough and no conditions on how its to be spent, or contrary to what the politicos want, not spent.
B: There'll be a lag, as there always is, between the problem...recognition of it...action...and implementation.
Early spring might be too late and might just prolong the inevitable.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
1/24 4:25pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Well, it would arguably be irresponsible and inconsistent for them to become all dire and predict the death of all we hold so dear. Goldman Sachs have already said a recession is almost certain, but even then that's still leaving X% chance of avoiding one.
ES
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
1/24 5:02pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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darthdrago posted:
DarthKarde posted:
Platinum is extremely rare (far more so than gold).
So in other words, platinum, by virtue of being extremely rare, isn't useful as a currency because there isn't enough of it in existence to be exchanged upon demand in a conventional market economy.
So, to use Ender's preferred term, it's not very liquid.
How is this different than gold again? 
You seem to be confusing two issues. Your first paragragh is correct. However the fact that something is rare does not mean that it lacks liquidity.
Ender_Sai posted:
lolwhat?
DarthKarde, do you perhaps want to address this hi-larious statement, lest people confuse you as an adherent of the POV that Droid General follows, like a moth to a flame?
Since I have not actually argued for a return to the gold standard at any point I fail to see why any reasonable person could conclude that I was an adherant to the POV of Droid General. For the record I have deep concerns about the Federal Reserve and the entire process of fractional reserve banking and futhermore I see some reasons why a return to the gold standard would be a good idea. However I share some of the views that you have outlined as to why returning to the gold standard would be somewhat problematic. Not being an economist I don't pretend to have all the answers. Hopefully someone smarter than me can come up with a solution that is better than the status quo or the gold standard.
ShaneP posted:
As an aside, today's announcement on a "tax rebate" for U.S. taxpayers(or even non-taxpayers...lol)is a joke. It's rubbish. For one, it'll likely be too late and lag behind the onset of a recession. And also, what we need right now is some paying down of debt, not encouraging people to go out and buy more crap they do not need.
Bush is a friggin idiot.
Shane, you may, or more likely will not, recall a post I made before the 2004 elections, which you whole heartedly agreed with, where I pointed out that Keynesiam demand management is the the dominant economic principle of both parties. It seems that we haven't moved on.
NB: Any spelling or gramitical errord in this post should be considered a result of the lateness of the hour (1AM here in England) and my inebriated state.
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The UK Independance Party - http://www.ukip.org The Freedom Association - http://www.tfa.net Better Off Out - http://www.betteroffout.co.uk Say NO2ID and the database state - http://www.no2id.net/
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DroidGeneral
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/24 5:06pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
- Date Edited:
1/24 5:11pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DroidGeneral
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Ender_Sai posted:
DroidGeneral posted:
It can be created because that's what the Fed does. Your silly naiveness that the Fed is a do-good institution shines through every time you post. They are creating credit/money out of thin air. Poof, $10 billion dollars. Poof $100 billion dollars. Then they charge interest on it. Interest on money they did not have in the first place!
lol trolltastic.
Seriously, I believe you read what I say, you just clearly don't understand it and it's got you in a corner.
As I have said to you, and if you could have checked, the Fed can only circulate money if it liquifies a security (i.e. sells a bond) or tenders its own money in a purchase.
You can verify this looking at the Federal Reserve balance sheet, which is publicly available.
Here
Sigh. It was easier teaching kids to speak English... 
ES
Well yes those numbers are nice, especially when you(the Fed) make them up.
Since no one audits what the Fed does, no one can be 100% sure that these numbers are correct or that they are actually do have the money they loan out. I don't trust the Fed one bit, its a big banking cartel and they collaborate to stomp out competition and raise their own profits.
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"The Force will be with you, always." "Star Wars isn't dead."-George Lucas  Ron Paul 2008
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DroidGeneral
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/24 5:11pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Lane_Winree posted:
*Sigh* You really haven't read a thing Ender has posted, have you?
I'm sorry, but I missed the part where everyone is supposed to bow down and kiss ender's butt? That we're supposed to accept everything he says as correct? What ever happened to different points of view? (oh that's right, if you don't agree with the mainstream, you're looney. The same mainstream that's been screwing things up nicely for the past 15 years)
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
1/24 5:43pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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DroidGeneral posted:
I'm sorry, but I missed the part where everyone is supposed to bow down and kiss ender's butt? That we're supposed to accept everything he says as correct? What ever happened to different points of view? (oh that's right, if you don't agree with the mainstream, you're looney. The same mainstream that's been screwing things up nicely for the past 15 years)
No, when you don't agree with the mainstream and you don't provide support for your arguments you are considered a looney.
You see, Ender has provided a lot of support for what he's said. Your support has mostly consisting of "prove me wrong". That doesn't, and never has, constitute an acceptable supporting argument in the Senate. You just aren't getting that.
If you want people you not consider you a looney, you need to present your entire argument along with both the reasons why it's valid and the supporting evidence to show why it's valid.
When you can do that, people will stop fitting you for a long-sleeved white jacket and a padded room at Happy Dale.
Kimball Kinnison
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Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
1/24 5:48pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
- Date Edited:
1/24 5:49pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Espaldapalabras
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DroidGeneral, I have been on this board for a very long time, as have most of the other regular posters here. We have all disagreed with ES at some point, and I have done so so many times I've lost count. Even on economics I don't accept everything he says, and if you don't believe me go read through some old threads. We aren't kissing his butt when we point out he is kicking yours, it is obvious to anyone who isn't a Paulbot. You haven't countered any of his arguments, you just keep repeating the same lines. You don't get respect for your point of view until you earn it.
To be honest, I read through those quotes of Dr. Paul that Jabbadabbado posted and agreed with his analysis of the problem. You know who Paul reminds me of? Marx. Seriously. Both made some good observations about the problems of the system. But what is wrong with both of them is the solutions they propose are far worse systems than the status quo, and both prevent ideology from interfering with rational analysis. Now before you freak out because I just compared your savior to your devil, please try to understand this point I am making. I am not saying their policies are similar at all. I am just saying that both correctly identified problems with the economy, but were way off in trying to fix the problems.
You keep spouting what sounds like to everyone else as paranoia, and it isn't helping you get any respect. You need to learn how to speak so others will respect you, because even if you think the sky is falling, you aren't going to convince anyone by running around the street yelling it at the top of your lungs.
So instead of complaining about how we are all siding with ES, why don't you take him down point by point? I still haven't heard your counter to his claim that the Gold Standard causes too much illiquidity.
Edit: Darn you KK for being funnier about it!
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
1/24 6:01pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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DroidGeneral posted:
Well yes those numbers are nice, especially when you(the Fed) make them up.
Since no one audits what the Fed does, no one can be 100% sure that these numbers are correct or that they are actually do have the money they loan out. I don't trust the Fed one bit, its a big banking cartel and they collaborate to stomp out competition and raise their own profits.
So basically, you admit to ignorance, blind faith in Ron Paul, and zero economic understanding.
The latter is especially evidence since if you did understand it, you'd know what effect "magically creating" $1,000,000 here and there would do.
But let's turn our attention to the bolded statement above.
You claim nobody audits the Fed.
They claim they are audited.
I quote:
The Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve Banks, and the Federal Reserve System as a whole are all subject to several levels of audit and review. Under the Federal Banking Agency Audit Act (enacted in 1978 as Public Law 95-320), which authorizes the Comptroller General of the United States to audit the Federal Reserve System, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) has conducted numerous reviews of Federal Reserve activities. In addition, the Board's Office of Inspector General (OIG) audits and investigates Board programs and operations as well as those Board functions delegated to the Reserve Banks. Completed and active GAO reviews and completed OIG audits, reviews, and assessments are listed in the Board’s Annual Report (before 2002, the reviews were listed in the Board's Annual Report: Budget Review).
The Board's financial statements, and its compliance with laws and regulations affecting those statements, are audited annually by an outside auditor retained by the OIG. The financial statements of the Reserve Banks are also audited annually by an independent outside auditor. In addition, the Reserve Banks are subject to annual examination by the Board. The Board's financial statements and the combined financial statements for the Reserve Banks are published in the Board's Annual Report.
Yet another clear failure on your behalf to articulate any position point that dispells the fact (that was previously a notion but I'd say you've satisifed the criteria to make it a fact) that you do not understand what you're talking about.
Again, the irony of Paulbots calling others "Sheeple" is absolutely delicious. You blindly follow the  and it clear and unambiguous that you do not know why. He's wrong, and so are you, only he's articulate about it whereas your failures tend to be stunning the same way a thirty-six car pileup is stunning.
Please, do some research, study some economics, stop embarrassing yourself, and stop wasting our time.
ES
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darthdrago
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
1/24 6:26pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
- Date Edited:
1/24 6:35pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
darthdrago
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DarthKarde posted:
darthdrago posted:
DarthKarde posted:
Platinum is extremely rare (far more so than gold).
So in other words, platinum, by virtue of being extremely rare, isn't useful as a currency because there isn't enough of it in existence to be exchanged upon demand in a conventional market economy.
So, to use Ender's preferred term, it's not very liquid.
How is this different than gold again?
You seem to be confusing two issues. Your first paragragh is correct. However the fact that something is rare does not mean that it lacks liquidity.
DarthKarde, you're probably snoozing as I type this, but...
I'm having a hard time figuring out why you're splitting syntax hairs with my posts. I never said platinum wasn't without liquidity. I said it's not very liquid. Of course, I'll grant you that gold is more liquid than platinum. But, as Ender's been repeating (apparently in vain), cash is even MORE liquid than gold. It's easier to transfer, whether it's as cash notes & coins physically exchanged between people, or as an electronic data transfer between bank accounts.
So cash is more convenient than gold bars or coins. I won't assume what British sensibilities are, but Americans go where the convenience is, in all walks of life. In fact, you could argue that the hyper-convenience of electronic money transactions and quick credit lines are one of America's problems with debt, both personal and national. People with sketchy credit signed on for risky loans from mortgage companies (who were all too eager to loan money out for real estate purchases), and thus this was a large part of the subprime meltdown that started in late 2006, kicking off the USA's march to a recession. Some people will blame the mortgage companies for reckless lending, some will blame the home buyers for applying for dangerous loans without reading the fine print (when they often had murky credit ratings to begin with), some people blame the US government for not getting involved, and some people blame the Federal Reserve for printing money out of thin air. I say there's blame to go all around, but I won't say that easy credit or lightning-fast money transactions are terrible ways to do business on a personal or state level just because of cash's ultra-liquid disposition.
I receive my wages via direct-deposit electronic transfer into my bank account. At first I was reluctant; I wanted a real check in my hands. But now I wouldn't do it any other way. A hardcopy check could be lost, destroyed, or stolen before I reach my bank and deposit/cash it in. This way the money conveniently goes straight to my bank, without my having to lift a finger. I fail to see how being paid in gold coins (as Ron Paul prefer) would be convenient to me. I'd have my pockets jangling with gold coins inside (gee, THAT wouldn't be asking to be robbed!) every time I walked out into public. Say I'm not directly paid in gold coin--say I'm paid with a check/voucher redeemable in gold coins from a bank. I still run the same risk as I do with a hardcopy check given to me. I could lose it, get robbed, etc. Ron Paul believes we need to physically see gold coins changing hands and being used in purchasing transactions.
Even if you skip all of Ender's worthy points about why liquid cash/credit is better, you still wouldn't have much success in convincing many Americans that they should be carrying lots of "liquid" gold coins simply because there are lots of Americans who don't want to be inconvenienced with having to carry lots of gold coins in their pockets or purses. I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it. And if I don't carry $50 in gold coins in my pocket, I'd then have to be more discriminatory with my purchases, simply because I wouldn't have enough money on me to spend at all. If you get a lot of people who feel the same, then this could affect the economy simply because people won't be spending very much money at all. Ender's already covered this too: money has to flow if they economy is going to work. Cash/credit moves better than gold. (But I will grant you that gold moves better than platinum.  )
EDIT: just read the last post. I'm probably going to regret saying this in the future, but Ender = WIN.
EDIT 2: And no, I'm not ass-kissing. 
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
1/24 6:37pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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It's ok, my ego has reached critical mass.
ES
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
1/24 6:52pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Now I look stupid for trying to be all nice about it when everyone else was so funny.
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We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
1/24 8:50pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
- Date Edited:
1/24 8:51pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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darthdrago's post about the convenience of hyper-liquidity was very good. Beyond mere convenience, though, American consumers are subject to an incessant drumbeat of indoctrination in favor of unfettered debt spending. I would be underreporting if I said I received ten offers a day in the mail to take on additional debt. When I do an ATM transaction, I get an advertisement on the screen encouraging me to take out a home equity loan. My email inbox is as clogged as my postal mailbox with these kinds of offers. Good ol' television hasn't given up either on encouraging me to push the envelope of leveraged spending.
You'd think in this new age of uncertainty about an unfolding banking crisis, this kind of advertising would have eased up a bit. It hasn't.
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DroidGeneral
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/24 9:43pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
- Date Edited:
1/24 9:45pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DroidGeneral
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Ender_Sai posted:
DroidGeneral posted:
Well yes those numbers are nice, especially when you(the Fed) make them up.
Since no one audits what the Fed does, no one can be 100% sure that these numbers are correct or that they are actually do have the money they loan out. I don't trust the Fed one bit, its a big banking cartel and they collaborate to stomp out competition and raise their own profits.
So basically, you admit to ignorance, blind faith in Ron Paul, and zero economic understanding.
The latter is especially evidence since if you did understand it, you'd know what effect "magically creating" $1,000,000 here and there would do.
But let's turn our attention to the bolded statement above.
You claim nobody audits the Fed.
They claim they are audited.
I quote:
The Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve Banks, and the Federal Reserve System as a whole are all subject to several levels of audit and review. Under the Federal Banking Agency Audit Act (enacted in 1978 as Public Law 95-320), which authorizes the Comptroller General of the United States to audit the Federal Reserve System, the Government Accountability Office (GAO) has conducted numerous reviews of Federal Reserve activities. In addition, the Board's Office of Inspector General (OIG) audits and investigates Board programs and operations as well as those Board functions delegated to the Reserve Banks. Completed and active GAO reviews and completed OIG audits, reviews, and assessments are listed in the Board’s Annual Report (before 2002, the reviews were listed in the Board's Annual Report: Budget Review).
The Board's financial statements, and its compliance with laws and regulations affecting those statements, are audited annually by an outside auditor retained by the OIG. The financial statements of the Reserve Banks are also audited annually by an independent outside auditor. In addition, the Reserve Banks are subject to annual examination by the Board. The Board's financial statements and the combined financial statements for the Reserve Banks are published in the Board's Annual Report.
Yet another clear failure on your behalf to articulate any position point that dispells the fact (that was previously a notion but I'd say you've satisifed the criteria to make it a fact) that you do not understand what you're talking about.
Again, the irony of Paulbots calling others "Sheeple" is absolutely delicious. You blindly follow the and it clear and unambiguous that you do not know why. He's wrong, and so are you, only he's articulate about it whereas your failures tend to be stunning the same way a thirty-six car pileup is stunning.
Please, do some research, study some economics, stop embarrassing yourself, and stop wasting our time.
ES
Wow, so the Fed can create more BS? Gosh that's not new to me.
The real sheeple are the ones like you who believe we have to have a central banking to manage the money supply or it will "fall apart an descend into chaos".
Oh God forbid we actually had a free market!
So why are the meetings closed to the public? Why has the Fed recently hid the MZM (or is it the M3?) numbers from the public? What are they trying to cover up?
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Lane_Winree
Registered:
Mar '06
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Date Posted:
1/24 9:51pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
- Date Edited:
1/24 9:52pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lane_Winree
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Oh give it up. Ron Paul is the anti free-market candidate. Perhaps if you bothered to actually research his policies for yourself rather than following him blindly you'd realize that.
Take off your tinfoil hat and actually read some of the stuff Ender has posted. He's given you an incredible amount of material showing that the gold standard is a terrible idea and that the federal reserve isn't making money out of thin air.
DG posted:
So why are the meetings closed to the public? Why has the Fed recently hid the MZM (or is it the M3?) numbers from the public? What are they trying to cover up?
See, this is why we're tired of Paulbots. I'm sorry, but not everything is a conspiracy. The government isn't out to get you. The Federal Reserve isn't a Ian Flemming style secret evil organization. Either start reading the material that has been posted on this thread and respond in a sensible manner, or go into a corner and listen to Coast to Coast AM with the other conspiracy theorists.
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