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Topic:
The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
1/24 11:13pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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DroidGeneral, you've not provided evidence that there is a conspiracy, just made a claim. Claims need to be backed up.
Also, just to check, you do oppose both minimum wage laws and child labour laws, correct?
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DarthKarde
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
1/25 2:17am
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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darthdrago posted:
I'm having a hard time figuring out why you're splitting syntax hairs with my posts. I never said platinum wasn't without liquidity. I said it's not very liquid. Of course, I'll grant you that gold is more liquid than platinum. But, as Ender's been repeating (apparently in vain), cash is even MORE liquid than gold. It's easier to transfer, whether it's as cash notes & coins physically exchanged between people, or as an electronic data transfer between bank accounts.
So cash is more convenient than gold bars or coins. I won't assume what British sensibilities are, but Americans go where the convenience is, in all walks of life. In fact, you could argue that the hyper-convenience of electronic money transactions and quick credit lines are one of America's problems with debt, both personal and national. People with sketchy credit signed on for risky loans from mortgage companies (who were all too eager to loan money out for real estate purchases), and thus this was a large part of the subprime meltdown that started in late 2006, kicking off the USA's march to a recession. Some people will blame the mortgage companies for reckless lending, some will blame the home buyers for applying for dangerous loans without reading the fine print (when they often had murky credit ratings to begin with), some people blame the US government for not getting involved, and some people blame the Federal Reserve for printing money out of thin air. I say there's blame to go all around, but I won't say that easy credit or lightning-fast money transactions are terrible ways to do business on a personal or state level just because of cash's ultra-liquid disposition.
I receive my wages via direct-deposit electronic transfer into my bank account. At first I was reluctant; I wanted a real check in my hands. But now I wouldn't do it any other way. A hardcopy check could be lost, destroyed, or stolen before I reach my bank and deposit/cash it in. This way the money conveniently goes straight to my bank, without my having to lift a finger. I fail to see how being paid in gold coins (as Ron Paul prefer) would be convenient to me. I'd have my pockets jangling with gold coins inside (gee, THAT wouldn't be asking to be robbed!) every time I walked out into public. Say I'm not directly paid in gold coin--say I'm paid with a check/voucher redeemable in gold coins from a bank. I still run the same risk as I do with a hardcopy check given to me. I could lose it, get robbed, etc. Ron Paul believes we need to physically see gold coins changing hands and being used in purchasing transactions.
Even if you skip all of Ender's worthy points about why liquid cash/credit is better, you still wouldn't have much success in convincing many Americans that they should be carrying lots of "liquid" gold coins simply because there are lots of Americans who don't want to be inconvenienced with having to carry lots of gold coins in their pockets or purses. I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it. And if I don't carry $50 in gold coins in my pocket, I'd then have to be more discriminatory with my purchases, simply because I wouldn't have enough money on me to spend at all. If you get a lot of people who feel the same, then this could affect the economy simply because people won't be spending very much money at all. Ender's already covered this too: money has to flow if they economy is going to work. Cash/credit moves better than gold. (But I will grant you that gold moves better than platinum.  )
I probably didn't explain this very well, partly because I slightly misread your previous post.
Both gold and platinum lack liquidity to such a degree that they are unsuitable for use as currency. Your arguements about convenience is absolutely spot on in that regards. Returning to the gold standard is however a different matter. Having the dollar backed by gold would not mean that coins (non gold) and paper bills would not be used as currency.
The reason that you could not have a 'platinum standard' has nothing to do with its lack of liquidity but as I said before its rarity. There simply isn't enough platinum, at it's present value, to back the dollar. For a 'platinum standard' to be remotely possible there would have to be a masive increase in the value of platinum with it's supply staying stable or vast increase in it's supply with the price staying stable. Obviously this is somewhat unlikely to happen.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
1/25 2:29am
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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The reason that you could not have a 'platinum standard' has nothing to do with its lack of liquidity but as I said before its rarity. There simply isn't enough platinum, at it's present value, to back the dollar.
You do realize that one of the main reasons we totally decoupled gold from our currency was that we simply didn't have enough gold? We had bankfulls of the stuff after the war, and eventually we ran out and needed more currency for our growing economy than we could keep in a vault.
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DroidGeneral
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/25 6:11am
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Lane_Winree posted:
Oh give it up. Ron Paul is the anti free-market candidate.
WTF.
Ok you obviously don't understand Paul or Austrian economics, its about as free market as you can get. Even Ender Sai can tell you that.
You really have no business discussing politics if you're going to call Ron Paul "anti-free market".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Economics
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"The Force will be with you, always." "Star Wars isn't dead."-George Lucas  Ron Paul 2008
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DroidGeneral
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/25 6:13am
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
DroidGeneral, you've not provided evidence that there is a conspiracy, just made a claim. Claims need to be backed up.
Also, just to check, you do oppose both minimum wage laws and child labour laws, correct?
I've never claimed their is a "conspiracy" but I've claimed the meetings are secret, which they are. One time in the 80s Paul(when he was in Congress) asked if he could join the meetings the Fed has, they flatly replied "No". Now why all the secrecy?
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"The Force will be with you, always." "Star Wars isn't dead."-George Lucas Ron Paul 2008
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
1/25 6:43am
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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There is one other thing to consider about gold.
We have an ever-decreasing supply of it. Just because we have (for example) 100 tons today doesn't mean that we will always have 100 tons of gold. It has quite a few industrial and scientific uses, too. My father used gold in working on his PhD dissertation (on the electro-optical properties of a thin gold film). Gold is used in building a wide variety of electronics (including the computers we're all using to access this board). Gold, because of its high conductivity, is often used in plating cables and other electrical connections. Because gold is almost completely inert and non-reactive, it is very common in hazardous environments.
Why would you want to base your currency on something that has industrial uses, and has an ever-decreasing supply? Wouldn't that mean that your money supply is constantly decreasing? (And no, using platinum wouldn't solve that problem because it also has industrial uses.)
Kimball Kinnison
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
1/25 7:44am
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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DroidGeneral posted:
Lane_Winree posted:
Oh give it up. Ron Paul is the anti free-market candidate.
WTF.
Ok you obviously don't understand Paul or Austrian economics, its about as free market as you can get. Even Ender Sai can tell you that.
You really have no business discussing politics if you're going to call Ron Paul "anti-free market".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Economics
OMG, you golden tongued hypocrite!
YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND ECONOMICS.
To call your understanding "vaguely childlike" would be to elevate several-thousandfold above where it is now. How dare you point the finger at anyone else for not understanding economics when you barely rate above "severally mentally handicapped" on that same scale!
Seriously, where a normal person has humility and reasoning, you have puffy chest arrogance and insatiable ignorance.
You don't understand economics, in the same way a newborn baby doesn't understand quantum mechanics. This isn't an opinion, it's a ******* fact. Seriously.
You have no business discussing economics given your demonstrable titanic ignorance and stubborn refusal to do anything but regurgiate Ron  Paul propaganda. You're the sheeple, you and your other dittohead insecure nationalist friends, as you've fallen in line behind the shepherd who will lead you like lemmings to an intellectual death.
I have tried, ad nauseum, for the last few pages to break through the lines, the brainwashing, and indoctrination and to hammer a nail of sense into that skull of yours. You've ignored it, refused to counter it, and talked a phenomenal amount of **** in between.
Either grow some basic capacity to reason and comprehend, develop a shred of humility to accept your vast limitations, or **** off and stop trolling.
Seriously, I'm tired of having to repeat myself to a human brick wall (and I apologise to all the brick walls out there for that insult). Mods, how many pages of this idiocy before you acknowledge the trolling? We're at six now.
ES
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DroidGeneral
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/25 8:13am
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Ender_Sai posted:
DroidGeneral posted:
Lane_Winree posted:
Oh give it up. Ron Paul is the anti free-market candidate.
WTF.
Ok you obviously don't understand Paul or Austrian economics, its about as free market as you can get. Even Ender Sai can tell you that.
You really have no business discussing politics if you're going to call Ron Paul "anti-free market".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_Economics
OMG, you golden tongued hypocrite!
YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND ECONOMICS.
To call your understanding "vaguely childlike" would be to elevate several-thousandfold above where it is now. How dare you point the finger at anyone else for not understanding economics when you barely rate above "severally mentally handicapped" on that same scale!
Seriously, where a normal person has humility and reasoning, you have puffy chest arrogance and insatiable ignorance.
You don't understand economics, in the same way a newborn baby doesn't understand quantum mechanics. This isn't an opinion, it's a ******* fact. Seriously.
You have no business discussing economics given your demonstrable titanic ignorance and stubborn refusal to do anything but regurgiate Ron Paul propaganda. You're the sheeple, you and your other dittohead insecure nationalist friends, as you've fallen in line behind the shepherd who will lead you like lemmings to an intellectual death.
I have tried, ad nauseum, for the last few pages to break through the lines, the brainwashing, and indoctrination and to hammer a nail of sense into that skull of yours. You've ignored it, refused to counter it, and talked a phenomenal amount of **** in between.
Either grow some basic capacity to reason and comprehend, develop a shred of humility to accept your vast limitations, or **** off and stop trolling.
Seriously, I'm tired of having to repeat myself to a human brick wall (and I apologise to all the brick walls out there for that insult). Mods, how many pages of this idiocy before you acknowledge the trolling? We're at six now.
ES
I'd like to know what makes you omniscient in the field of economics?
Anyone that vouches for the Fed isn't fit to discuss free-market economics.
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"The Force will be with you, always." "Star Wars isn't dead."-George Lucas Ron Paul 2008
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
1/25 8:24am
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Look, I sympathize wholeheartedly with Ron Paul's basic conception of a global financial system gone utterly haywire during the drawn out death throws of petrodollar hegemony.
But I completely fail to see how issuing silver and gold coins will address any of that. If you could paint that picture for me and maybe for Ender too while he cools down, that would be helpful.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
1/25 11:42am
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Study, analysis, and an open mind, Droid General. What's best is as a non-American I understand the Fed better than you. 
ES
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DroidGeneral
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/25 11:53am
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
- Date Edited:
1/25 11:55am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DroidGeneral
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Jabbadabbado posted:
Look, I sympathize wholeheartedly with Ron Paul's basic conception of a global financial system gone utterly haywire during the drawn out death throws of petrodollar hegemony.
But I completely fail to see how issuing silver and gold coins will address any of that. If you could paint that picture for me and maybe for Ender too while he cools down, that would be helpful.
He's already decided, he calls the gold standard, ron paul, his supporters and the austrian school "looney".
Here's a video from the Mises Institute. It is far better at articulating the position than I can.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=iYZM58dulPE
This will give you a little bit of an introduction.
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"The Force will be with you, always." "Star Wars isn't dead."-George Lucas Ron Paul 2008
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
1/25 12:02pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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No.
You need to articulate your position.
You need to stop posting links to YouTube vids of fringe economics rattling on, and explain why global economic consensus about fractional reserve banking is correct and why a school that is marginalised in modern economic thought actually has the best answers.
You then need to articulate WHY you support Dr Paul's gold standard idea and how the criticisms myself and others have levelled at his ideas are invalid and why.
Right now, you are indeed a Paulbot. You are disseminating propaganda as programmed. You don't even need to understand the stuff you're disseminating (which is lucky, since you don't) but you just need to know the command to disseminate it exists.
Stop wasting our time, and start actually proving you're not a witless ovine devotee of a man who is out of touch with modernity.
ES
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DroidGeneral
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
1/25 12:18pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
- Date Edited:
1/25 12:27pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DroidGeneral
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Ender_Sai posted:
No.
You need to articulate your position.
You need to stop posting links to YouTube vids of fringe economics rattling on, and explain why global economic consensus about fractional reserve banking is correct and why a school that is marginalised in modern economic thought actually has the best answers.
You then need to articulate WHY you support Dr Paul's gold standard idea and how the criticisms myself and others have levelled at his ideas are invalid and why.
Right now, you are indeed a Paulbot. You are disseminating propaganda as programmed. You don't even need to understand the stuff you're disseminating (which is lucky, since you don't) but you just need to know the command to disseminate it exists.
Stop wasting our time, and start actually proving you're not a witless ovine devotee of a man who is out of touch with modernity.
ES
Or they could watch the video. I mean, unless you have something better to do?
Oh and anyone that says inflation is a good thing is a loon and needs to have their head examined. They obviously don't like the consumer to prosper. Banks prosper off of inflation and a paper money standard, consumers do not.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
1/25 12:30pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
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Or they could watch the video. I mean, unless you have something better to do?
Obviously you have better things to do than actually research your position and make your own argument, or actually bother to read other's posts and address the issues we have raised.
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A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
Theodore Roosevelt
We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
1/25 12:56pm
Subject:
RE: The Evil Fed Or Why do we want to go back to the Gold Standard?
- Date Edited:
1/25 12:56pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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...a man who is out of touch with modernity.
You know, I don't exactly agree with this. RP seems like a man like many others who, having recognized some legitimate, serious problems with the current world order and America's place in it, has reached out for a set of solutions, almost all of which just happen to be completely wrong.
It happens to the best of us. Look at George Bush. Everything he knows is wrong too, but he got to be President for two terms.
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