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Topic:
Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
Awesome
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
12/5/07 6:00pm
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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SuperWatto posted:
I don't have a belief, and I didn't arrive there by using evidence.
I was born in absence of any knowledge of the Christian God and was mostly brought up that way. But by being faced with a world where so many people have strange ideas in their heads, you look for evidence to back your ideas up.
The aforementioned Kindell, I checked him out, I thought: let's give it a shot. Let's assume dinosaurs were created on the fifth day. Okay. Then how come there's layers of Earth with dinosaur fossils and no human fossils in it? Now, I wouldn't give a crap about dino's or fossils if not just to refute these attacks on reason. And if your particular version of a God happens to come along and point out to me he's it, of course I'll believe in him! He just hasn't done so yet. That's why I don't believe in him - lack of evidence.
But it seems like you do have a belief, and that belief is that there is no God. If I ran up to you, and I told you "there is a God", what would you say? Would you say "no there isn't, because there is no evidence for such", than you have a belief in the fact that there is no god. That's not a bad thing by any means, but it's still a belief. Everything you described in your last paragraph is the process of you arriving at the belief that there is no God, or at least that the Christians who believe in six day creation (Kindell, et. al.) are wrong.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
12/6/07 12:19am
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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SuperWatto posted:
They thought the Earth was flat, and that paradise was East of Asia, yeah, that was sorta the angle.
Given that the fact that the earth was round has been known for several thousand years, whats the scriptural source that that was their view? (never read the Bible, but I've never seen a particular source for a claim like that)
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
12/6/07 2:02am
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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What is always interesting is to see other people put words in people's mouths. Who said KK believed in a 6 day, 24 hour a day creation? You assume we all take "day" to mean the current usage? I don't know what he believes on the subject, so I will not say what he thinks it means.
Also I've read all the New Testament and most of the Old, and have never heard anywhere that it says the Earth is flat. I haven't even heard of religious leaders proclaiming as such. Ignorant people in the middle ages thought that, many of whom were Christians. And even if for example Pope said so once, probably most Christians don't believe the Pope is infallible or even God's representative.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
12/6/07 3:57am
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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Espal, I didn't mean to imply that I know what kind of Christian anyone is. I'm only laying out the reasons why I don't believe.
Now, about the flat earth stuff: I'm a bit disappointed that some of you seem to want to be right more than you really want to debate. I listed three things from the Christian teachings that have been adapted to reflect current knowledge, and the one that's debatable is picked apart. But that wasn't the point. I assume you all got the point. So why try and get me on that one thing?
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
12/6/07 4:16am
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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SuperWatto posted:
Espal, I didn't mean to imply that I know what kind of Christian anyone is. I'm only laying out the reasons why I don't believe.
Now, about the flat earth stuff: I'm a bit disappointed that some of you seem to want to be right more than you really want to debate. I listed three things from the Christian teachings that have been adapted to reflect current knowledge, and the one that's debatable is picked apart. But that wasn't the point. I assume you all got the point. So why try and get me on that one thing?
If you want anyone to discuss the actual claims, you need to show what their basis is.
It's not enough to say "Christians believe X" or "The Bible teaches Y". The Bible is a big book (although I have read it cover to cover). Before we could discuss or even start to examine any alleged claims, we'd need to know where the claims are coming from (as in what passage or passages), before we can put them in context.
Kimball Kinnison
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
12/6/07 4:36am
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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True.
And I've looked it up, and there's as many people claiming the Bible says the Earth is flat (mentions of 'four corners of the Earth' aplenty) as people claiming the Bible says the Earth is round (mentions of 'Earth, the circle', which in Hebrew would mean 'sphere').
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
12/6/07 7:58am
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
- Date Edited:
12/6/07 7:59am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lowbacca_1977
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My greater conccern is that it seemed closely tied to the "Before Columbus, people thought the earth was flat" sort of thing. Which, as a fan of astronomy and currently sitting IN an astro lab I teach, is just a particular frustration for me.
I'm fairly familiar with the whole misconception as it relates to a flat earth, but not so much the other ones, also as I'm not religious so I don't know what the Bible itself says.
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
Awesome
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
12/6/07 8:10am
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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You an tweak the Bible to say anything to want it to, just like the Quran. Use it to justify slaver, murder, etc.
But that's not the point. The point of Christianity is not using the Bible to justify your stance on an issue, it's forming your stances around what you believe the Bible is saying about an issue. I've never met anybody who believes that the world is flat...and while I don't hang around an amazing amount of Christians, I do know quite a few. That just doesn't seem legitimate to me. If anything, it's an estranged, small, subgroup. It's academically lazy to formulate your opinions of an entire religion on what a small subgroup believes, not the vast majority.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
12/6/07 11:38am
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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Just as you can't say what makes a devout Christian, you cannot determine what the point of Christianity is. You can, for yourself - but not for everybody.
But that wasn't my point 
My point was that, in the past 600 years, science has made some of the teachings in the Bible obsolete. This made the Church have to adapt its stance time and time again, which then comes across as not a very dependable belief system.
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
Awesome
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
12/6/07 12:06pm
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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I disagree, because, as you just said, not everybody in the church had to change their beliefs. Only those whose beliefs didn't fit with science. As already pointed out (by myself an others), one can believe in everything the Bible says, while using science to supplement that.
These instances of "the church changing it's beliefs" aren't very valid, because many different people believe many different things, within the church.
But I understand what you're saying.
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"When you see me, what do you see?
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
12/6/07 12:23pm
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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I understand what you're saying, too. There isn't One Christianity... which we established already.
Yet, this is exactly how it was proposed to me in school. This is what they taught me, and what I think is being taught all over the Western world. Of course, I was told of Catholics and Protestants, but that's it. No time for nuances - while the nuances are just the things that makes us delve deeper.
Anyway, so that's how I was never tempted to 'believe'; because it was presented as a... hokey religion. Other religions - like the outlandish ones Lowbacca named - I didn't even get close to.
OOC, Prenn - what's your faith?
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
Awesome
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
12/6/07 1:33pm
Subject:
RE: Religion, atheism, and the inherent problems one face with the other
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Yeah, thanks for the insight, Watto. I love hearing what people believe (or don't, in your case), and why.
Personally, I consider myself a postmodern christian (notice the lower-case letters), as I am a follower of Jesus, who I believe to be God (in some form), though God is certainly infinite and I would never claim to understand it completely. And I'm not a huge fan of limiting God either, just for that reason. Things can be learned from Mohammed, Gautama, Lao Tzu, and all of the other amazing religious leaders. I'm not a huge fan of organized Christianity as a whole, though I do attend church (the specific denomination doesn't really matter to me, as they all have valuable things that can be appreciated), and I do "minister" in an "outreach program", where I mentor poor Jr. High boys, and teach them to stumble after Jesus as I try to do--through love.
I hope that answered your question. I'm in class right now so I don't have the time to go much deeper at the moment (but I could go on for days). Feel free to PM me or post here if you'd like to discuss it more.
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"When you see me, what do you see?
I see a big bushy beard and hair."
- Stephen Colbert discussing his inabilit to "see" race, with Cornel West
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