Author Topic: The end of cheap food
Lowbacca_1977 
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered: Jun '06
Date Posted: 12/17/07 12:42am Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
That is far from being McCain's biggest reason that he's not going to get nominated, I think

 

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dizfactor 
Registered: Aug '02
6896_Obi-Wan<br>LEGO
Date Posted: 12/23/07 1:31pm Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
Espaldapalabras posted:
In one of my religion classes at school I was told that people who are against SUVs are part of Satan's plan because they don't like large families.


*head explodes*

 

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Espaldapalabras 
Registered: Aug '05
42020_Indiana Jones
Date Posted: 12/23/07 8:33pm Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
Diz I just want you to know that is in no way representative of nearly all Mormons. Every group has people with really ignorant views. It isn't LDS church policy, and my opinion is that it is our religious duty to take good care of our planet. I only mentioned it because it was so outrageous When it happened we had a good laugh about it in the political science class I had right after.

 

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Jabbadabbado 
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 12/24/07 5:17am Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
Having a large family is one of the most purely evil things a person can do if taking care of the planet is a moral imperative.

Some day, the Economist will figure out that the real reason for the "end of cheap food" is the increasing challenge of the food supply keeping pace with population growth. The U.S. alone added 34 million people between 1990 and 2000, its biggest population increase ever. Many parts of the world still have population growth rates of 1 or 2 percent, meaning a doubling of their populations within a few decades or before the end of this century.

 

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Espaldapalabras 
Registered: Aug '05
42020_Indiana Jones
Date Posted: 12/24/07 12:05pm Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
If we took care of our resources responsibly, we would have more than enough for twice our population. Population growth, especially in developed nations isn't the problem. If we stopped eating so much meat that alone would drastically increase the amount of food available. And if you look at the projected statistics our population is going to level off naturally. We already see many countries with negative growth rates, and by 2050 we will be past the peak population and on a gradual decline. We are nowhere near close to the carrying capacity of the earth, and I don't see any evidence that we have far overshot it. Of course if we want everyone to live just like rich Americans, then of course the Earth might not be able to support that sort of lifestyle. But in the end it really doesn't have to do with the number of kids, but how those kids live.

And while my teacher was off base, the real point she was trying to make I think is that people are trying to turn a good thing, kids, into a bad thing. The real problem is people having kids who are not able to take care of them and not using our resources wisely.

The other thing you ignore is that our economy is based on a population growth economy. We simply don't know what it would be like to live in an economy with a constantly shrinking economy because it hasn't happened since the 1700s.

 

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Jabbadabbado 
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 1/3 2:28pm Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
There is plenty of evidence that we've overshot the carrying capacity of the earth, including runaway pollution, anthropogenic climate change, water table depletion, soil erosion/depletion, commercial extinction of fisheries, commodity price explosion, etc.

By the way, here's another interesting article about food inflation.

 

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Jabbadabbado 
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 2/27 2:03pm Subject: RE: The end of cheap food

High food prices may force aid rationing

The United Nation’s agency responsible for relieving hunger is drawing up plans to ration food aid in response to the spiralling cost of agricultural commodities.


"We are seeing a new face of hunger in which people are being priced out of the food market"

--Josette Sheeran, executive director, World Food Programme

 

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henchman24 
Registered: Feb '08
6445_JC Newbie
Date Posted: 3/1 11:24pm Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
Nothing short of a massive war or crippling plague will solve this problem. World population is the heavy, and everything from policy reform to lifestyle change will only prolong the inevitable.

The real issue is how long the governments of the powerhouse countries can keep the illusion of stability aloft in there respective general populations? Long enough to last until the war/plague, or not much longer and its the cause of the war/plague that we are in desperate need of.

I know I am just a little ray of sunshine.

Feel free to message me for copies of my motivational seminars =P

 

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Jabbadabbado 
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 3/3 11:44am Subject: RE: The end of cheap food - Date Edited: 3/3 11:51am (1 edits total) Edited By: Jabbadabbado
When all the current construction of ethanol production capacity is done, corn-based ethanol could take 38% of U.S. corn production, or about 4.2 billion bushels. That's enough corn to feed the earth's population for about 25 days. It would be less than that of course since most of our corn is fed to animals before those animals or their byproducts are then fed to humans at a substantial loss of food energy.

But that's just the U.S. As long as oil prices are high, biofuel production around the world may continue to rise. It's not inconceivable that the end result could be several months of the world's food supply taken off the shelf.

A very predictable result, even if no one starves, is that the world's population will be eating less meat within 5 years.

"We will not find sufficient water to produce all the crops. There will be a fierce fight [between the food and biofuel industries] for arable land." -- Peter Brabeck, CEO, Nestlé SA

 

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Jabbadabbado 
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 3/31 7:57am Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
Rice prices have become big news. Several countries have either implemented or are considering rice import bans. Food price protests are springing up.

Senegal police raid TV station after prices protest

Farmers fall prey to rice rustlers as price of staple crop rockets
Late last week, Cambodia banned all exports for two months to ensure "food security", following the lead of Egypt, a major exporter. Vietnam, which ships 5m tonnes abroad each year, on Friday declared a 20% cut in exports.

Indonesians took to the streets of the capital, Jakarta, in protest at rising prices even Thailand, the world's largest exporter, is bracing itself.


Philippines: protest at NFA over rice crisis

India: Naxalite supporters arrested for protesting against price hike of essential commodities

 

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Saintheart 
Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF
Registered: Dec '00
39869_Aragon
Date Posted: 4/2 8:37pm Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
I confess I don't know a great deal about the economic principles or the markets that contribute to this question, but just for my $0.02 --

I think ultimately there's really little that can be done to stop food prices rising across the board, mostly because it's a worldwide problem, and as a planet we humans have a pretty crappy track record for achieving worldwide action on any issue; look at the global warming argument for an example. Add to that the Brave New World of the Global Market and individual governments aren't going to be able to take preventative action on this point. On the other hand, the price of food fortunately isn't a scientific theory - it is dollars and cents and literal survival, which we do seem to "get" as a species.

So it comes down to the market dictating what happens. I don't think it's quite the Utopia that "Developing Countries will save the food world and therefore themselves"; if the experience with Nike and a number of fashion houses is anything to go by, one can expect the usual pox of large corporations pulling large profits out of the sale of goods made for a pittance in developing countries - almost to the point of feudalistic serfs and lords. That, to my mind, is globalisation in its ugliest form.

So what could we expect? Here's my guesses. I think one has to watch the prices of the true staples of nations' diets -- wheat, rice, meat, fruit and vegetables -- the building blocks of national diets. When those prices get too high, I think you'd see a range of different effects depending on the local economy. In poor countries, if the price of staples gets too high, people starve -- or riot and overthrow governments. In poor (or poorer) countries where the military holds control, you see military action (even against neighbours) as either a solution or a distraction, with a rarefied few at the very top still getting by on black market goods or siphoning off their countries' funds to survive.

In richer countries, what do we see? The political situation is more stable, so you're unlikely to see tanks rolling down Fifth Avenue. Instead the rich are able to absorb the price increase, if not profit from it under their investments. The poor starve or call on government welfare for help. Said welfare programs are strained or scaled back so the government doesn't go bankrupt trying to feed the people. The middle class (a disappearing group IMHHHO) get it hard as well: they don't starve necessarily, but they struggle or have to give up some (or a lot of) their expensive doodads. The government has (in reality) very little control over food prices, so we see an increasing number of inquiries to try and get to the bottom of the matter. I think the "price of food" inquiry we've got in Australia at the moment is a symptom of it. Maybe the middlemen get squeezed a bit; maybe they don't.

But ultimately I don't think you look at the market as the saviour of mankind. You see it as a weather system, with the major influences supply and demand, and with localised effects depending on the particular climate. Even so, food's a unique category in that it's necessary for survival and is thus different to pretty much any other commodity bar water. It can't quite be predicted the same way as iron ore or plasma TVs. When food prices increase, they don't fall out of favour. People try to find alternate sources (difficult since food prices tend to increase across the board, not according to brand) pay the price, or protest about the price, but demand doesn't drop; you can put off buying the plasma to next year, but not this week's food supply.

 

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Jabbadabbado 
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 4/3 1:29pm Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
Great post!

People forget that free markets aren't designed to meet people's needs or serve society. All they do is bring buyers and sellers together in the marketplace. It's an efficient way to allocate scarce resources. In a perfectly functioning global marketplace, it may be perfectly efficient to allow millions of people to starve.

Of course, governments will step in when the functioning of the market causes political unrest. The governments of NICs and developing countries that export foods are now limiting exports (e.g. rice exports from India, Vietnam) to quell civil discontent over food prices.

This screws food importing nations by driving international prices even higher. The real losers in this scenario are the third world/developing nations that have to import grain.

Rising energy costs are also an issue. Food importing nations are paying record prices for rice/wheat/corn, but also record high international freight rates. When Bangladesh has a 60% increase in the price of rice in a single year, then more than a hundred million people are going to be very unhappy.

Today - record price for rice:
Rough rice for May delivery rose 33 cents, or 1.7 percent, to $20.12 per 100 pounds at 11:23 a.m. on the Chicago Board of Trade, after the United Nations' Food and Agriculture Organization said global exports will drop 3.5 percent this year as nations curb sales. Rice earlier reached a record $20.35


If demand for grain grows 3% annually but rice exports fall 3.5%, that is a very tough situation.

 

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KnightWriter 
Title:
Administrator Emeritus

Registered: Nov '01
45250_YJCC
Date Posted: 4/6 10:33pm Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
Clearly, Paul Krugman reads this thread.

These days you hear a lot about the world financial crisis. But there’s another world crisis under way — and it’s hurting a lot more people.

I’m talking about the food crisis. Over the past few years the prices of wheat, corn, rice and other basic foodstuffs have doubled or tripled, with much of the increase taking place just in the last few months. High food prices dismay even relatively well-off Americans — but they’re truly devastating in poor countries, where food often accounts for more than half a family’s spending.

There have already been food riots around the world. Food-supplying countries, from Ukraine to Argentina, have been limiting exports in an attempt to protect domestic consumers, leading to angry protests from farmers — and making things even worse in countries that need to import food.

How did this happen? The answer is a combination of long-term trends, bad luck — and bad policy.

Let’s start with the things that aren’t anyone’s fault.

First, there’s the march of the meat-eating Chinese — that is, the growing number of people in emerging economies who are, for the first time, rich enough to start eating like Westerners. Since it takes about 700 calories’ worth of animal feed to produce a 100-calorie piece of beef, this change in diet increases the overall demand for grains.

Second, there’s the price of oil. Modern farming is highly energy-intensive: a lot of B.T.U.’s go into producing fertilizer, running tractors and, not least, transporting farm products to consumers. With oil persistently above $100 per barrel, energy costs have become a major factor driving up agricultural costs.

High oil prices, by the way, also have a lot to do with the growth of China and other emerging economies. Directly and indirectly, these rising economic powers are competing with the rest of us for scarce resources, including oil and farmland, driving up prices for raw materials of all sorts.

Third, there has been a run of bad weather in key growing areas. In particular, Australia, normally the world’s second-largest wheat exporter, has been suffering from an epic drought.

O.K., I said that these factors behind the food crisis aren’t anyone’s fault, but that’s not quite true. The rise of China and other emerging economies is the main force driving oil prices, but the invasion of Iraq — which proponents promised would lead to cheap oil — has also reduced oil supplies below what they would have been otherwise.

And bad weather, especially the Australian drought, is probably related to climate change. So politicians and governments that have stood in the way of action on greenhouse gases bear some responsibility for food shortages.

Where the effects of bad policy are clearest, however, is in the rise of demon ethanol and other biofuels.

The subsidized conversion of crops into fuel was supposed to promote energy independence and help limit global warming. But this promise was, as Time magazine bluntly put it, a “scam.”

This is especially true of corn ethanol: even on optimistic estimates, producing a gallon of ethanol from corn uses most of the energy the gallon contains. But it turns out that even seemingly “good” biofuel policies, like Brazil’s use of ethanol from sugar cane, accelerate the pace of climate change by promoting deforestation.

And meanwhile, land used to grow biofuel feedstock is land not available to grow food, so subsidies to biofuels are a major factor in the food crisis. You might put it this way: people are starving in Africa so that American politicians can court votes in farm states.

Oh, and in case you’re wondering: all the remaining presidential contenders are terrible on this issue.

One more thing: one reason the food crisis has gotten so severe, so fast, is that major players in the grain market grew complacent.

Governments and private grain dealers used to hold large inventories in normal times, just in case a bad harvest created a sudden shortage. Over the years, however, these precautionary inventories were allowed to shrink, mainly because everyone came to believe that countries suffering crop failures could always import the food they needed.

This left the world food balance highly vulnerable to a crisis affecting many countries at once — in much the same way that the marketing of complex financial securities, which was supposed to diversify away risk, left world financial markets highly vulnerable to a systemwide shock.

What should be done? The most immediate need is more aid to people in distress: the U.N.’s World Food Program put out a desperate appeal for more funds.

We also need a pushback against biofuels, which turn out to have been a terrible mistake.

But it’s not clear how much can be done. Cheap food, like cheap oil, may be a thing of the past.

 

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Espaldapalabras 
Registered: Aug '05
42020_Indiana Jones
Date Posted: 4/6 10:40pm Subject: RE: The end of cheap food
I don't know what we need to do to stop biofuels, but at some point I think extreme measures might be warrented. If the choice comes down to blowing up the biofuel refinery and feeding my family, it isn't going to be a hard decision to make.

 

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ShaneP 
Registered: Mar '01
13763_ESB Poster
Date Posted: 4/7 12:40pm Subject: RE: The end of cheap food - Date Edited: 4/7 12:44pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ShaneP
Once again we see what happens when legislation is crafted by and for special interests: The rest of the population be damned.

You mentioned above that biofuels are just a feel-good nationalistic boondoggle. I wouldn't even say they're that good. Certainly not as feel good as auto manufacturing or other industrial endeavours done on behalf of our nation.

Whenever I hear 'bi-partisan" I shudder. And that's sad because we should believe in the common good. But more often than not, today's bi-partisan just means both sides got a share of the spoils.

 

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