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Topic:
** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Countdown Discussion)**
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Erk
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
12/14/07 1:03am
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Vote!) **
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1. Karl XII (Charles XII)
2. Gustav Adolf the Great
3. Che Guevara
4. Erich Rommel
5. Saladin
6. Alexander the Great
7. Djingis Khan
8. Muhammed
9. Peter the Great
10. Napoleon
All of them were great in one way or another.
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"One man can change the world with a bullet in the right place." Mick Travis, If.... Blast. They've removed my icon.  U S A ! U S A ! U S A !
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The_Loyal_Imperial
Title: YAHTZEE Host
Forum Feud Winner
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
12/14/07 5:15am
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Vote!) **
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My personal top ten.
1. Alexander the Great
2. Julius Caesar
3. Napoleon Bonaparte
4. Genghis Khan
5. Attila the Hun
6. Hannibal Barca
7. William the Conqueror
8. Horatio Nelson
9. Duke of Wellington (Arthur Wellesley)
10. Erwin Rommel
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Attack of the Clones was released May 16, 2002.
Star Wars: Republic covered the Clone Wars starting Jan 22, 2003.
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darthdrago
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
12/17/07 12:24pm
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Vote!) **
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Voting deadline's tomorrow, folks.
Here's my own personal top 10, with explanations:
10. Adolf Hitler
Okay, this needs explanation. I chose Hitler for the simple fact that he's one of history's best examples of how not to lead, with his ego trumping sound strategy and experience. His meddling directly caused many of Germany's blown opportunities: halting the armored encirclement of the Allies at Dunkirk, bombing British cities instead of their RAF bases, the "stand fast" order that doomed 6th Army at Stalingrad, supporting Italian campaigns in Greece instead of sending the same divisions into Russia, dithering on the response to Rommel's calls for Panzers during D-Day, insisting on production of a jet bomber instead of more jet fighters, the list goes on and on. As evil as the man was, I'm certain that deep down Allied commanders were glad that a more capable, less egomaniacal person was not in ultimate command. Or we might have had a West vs Nazi cold war instead.
9. George Washington
Washington is on my list for one reason. He was not a genius tactician (he lost more often than he won). He was not even the most inspirational leader of the Continental Army (enlistments & re-enlistments required a lot of persuasion from himself & other officers). He's on on my list because he was a survivor. A practical man, he'd retreat rather than foolishly stand and be overrun by the British Army. He lived to fight another day, and he never quit. I read an essay that listed all the different ways the Colonials might have lost to the British, thus losing their independence. Many of those possibilities hinged on Washington's leadership even in the most dire circumstances.
8. Horatio Nelson
Nelson was not the most brilliant tactician, but he was relentless and fearless. Those two qualities were priceless assets for inspiring his men. Nelson's naval career was a huge reason why England never fell under Napoleon's thumb. When his name is spoken with reverence in Master and Commander, that reverence becomes much more believable.
7. Arminius, German leader of Teutoberg Forest battle
Jello could tell you more, but Arminius/Hermann learned from his one-time Roman captors, and routed a Roman army that wasn't used to losing. I don't believe it was a coincidence that the Romans largely avoided trying to conquer the Germanic tribes after this battle.
6. High Command of the Israeli Defense Forces, 1967
IMO there were two defining moments of the post-WWII 20th century: the end of the Cold War, and the Six Day War in 1967. The IDF expected to defeat the Arabs in two weeks, tops. Yet they surpassed their own expectations, overwhelmingly crushed the Arabs, and created a new reality in the region that still has direct effects today. Like 9/11 or the fall of the Berlin Wall, it was one of those threshold moments later defining history as "pre-1967" or "post-1967". Because of the IDF's superior capability, discipline, and intelligence, the Six Day War resulted in a 9.5 earthquake of history.
5. Erwin Rommel
Another brilliant tactician. The fact that so many of his adversaries spoke highly of him testifies to his ability and professionalism. Had Rommel been given the go-ahead orders and/or supply lines he needed, there are plenty of ways the war would have turned out different.
4. William Tecumseh Sherman
The original owner of the wallet that said "Bad Mother******". Still controversial even in modern times, but there's no doubt that he understood war to be exactly what it was, and pulled no punches. He fought to win, period. Sherman's also a rare example of self-awareness in a warrior: he knew precisely what he was doing and attached no romanticism to his efforts.
3. Sun Tzu
Probably the military strategist of history. Again, the fact that his theories are still studied proves his value in history. His theories are deceptively simple, yet amazingly powerful when executed properly.
2. Julius Caesar
The Napoleon of the Ancient world (or maybe Napoleon was the Caesar of the modern era). Amazing tactical skill and superior leadership qualities. Jello, was this guy ever defeated in battle? And with an ego this size, it's reasonable to assume that Caesar probably did think his writings & tactics would still be studied thousands of years later. And he was right.
1. Napoleon Bonaparte
A genius with few equals. I think it says a lot when post-Revolutionary France's opponents (UK, Austria, Prussia, Russia) planned their strategy not so much against the French military as a whole as they did against one man. Spectacular victories notwithstanding, he was also a powerful lesson in hubris. Furthermore, his creation of the still-used Civil Code cements his place as one of the most influential people in history.
Honorable Mentions:
Joshua of Old Testament. Would Judaism have survived the deaths of both Moses (died within site of the Hebrews' destination)and Joshua during the battle of Jericho? I'm not so sure. But we don't have to wonder, seeing that Joshua won.
Georgy Zhukov. TIME magazine once had Ike on the cover as "The Man Who Beat Hitler". If TIME did it right, Zhukov sould have been on the cover instead. (Vasili Chuikov also gets an honorable mention for winning at Stalingrad under enormous pressure.)
Chester Nimitz. Architect of the US Navy's finest moment at the Battle of Midway.
Vo Nguyen Giap. This man had a leading role in a third-world nation's defeat two major world powers (France and the USA), and stalemating a third (China). That says it all.
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Christos
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
12/17/07 3:24pm
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Vote!) **
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hey guys
1) Alexander the Great
2) Hannibal
3) Erwin Rommel
4) Eisenhower (and/or the organisers of Operation Overlord)
5) Alcibiades
6) Saladin
7) Pericles
8) Scipio Africanus
9) Peter Cosgrove
10) Custer/Harry Paget Flashman
By the way, number ten barely scraped in
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
12/18/07 12:14pm
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Vote!) **
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Any other last minute picks here?
For some choices, the line between Senate fame and obscurity is but a button click away...
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Darth-Seldon
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
12/20/07 11:38am
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Vote!) **
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1. Napoleon Bonaparte
Napoleon was selected for obvious reasons. His campaign almost established an empire from the Atlantic to the Urals with a magnificent set of victories across Europe. As romantized by David's paintings, Bonaparte now epitimoizes military rulers and is the ultimate conquerer.
2. Alexander the Great
Alexander was the first who truly built and established an empire. His success would be emulated by so many, but I give him credit was one of the first true conquerers.
3. Julius Ceasar
No surprise here. I'm simply giving him credit which should go to the hundreds of Roman rulers and generals who helped maintain that empire.
4. Mao Zedong
Quite simply, he killed more people than any other 20th Century leader. More than Stalin and more than Hitler.
5. Adolf Hitler
The Third Reich...
6. Andrew Jackson
After Washington had been burned and much of the east coast was occupied, the British under the command of Packenham was about to crush the Americans and reassert themselves on the continent. Jackson at New Orleans stopped them and humbled the mighty British Empire after their victory over Napoleon. Jackson had a coalition of indians, slaves, pirates, and the people of New Orleans--and somehow this was capable of repelling the onslaught. Furthermore, in the seminole wars, he exceeded his mandate by President Monroe, and was able to militarily seize Spain from the Spanish which resulted in the Adams-Onis treaty. Americans can both thank Jackson for saving the union in 1815 and also for adding Florida to the union.
7. Douglass MacArthur
8. George Washington
9. Dwight Eisenhower
10.
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Ben_Skywalker
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
12/20/07 4:19pm
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Votes Tallied-Results Soon)**
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I'm guessing that this is a list of the most well known military-related leaders?
Otherwise, how is Hitler up there?
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
• JCC
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 2:17am
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Countdown Discussion)**
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Um, the deadline is long past but since there's no posts as yet... can I submit a late vote (probably tomorrow)?
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Roma Æterna|SPQR  Imperium Sine Fine "Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque" -Ennius, Annales "Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento;hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos" -Virgil, Aeneid
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 2:28am
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Countdown Discussion)**
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The votes have been tallied and the list sent. I think Drago was busy with the holidays, so he should be starting the countdown soon. You're welcome to submit your picks for inclusion.
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Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
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Peter Shoomaker
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darthdrago
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 11:55am
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Countdown Discussion)**
- Date Edited:
12/24/07 11:55am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
darthdrago
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Jello didn't vote???
No harm done, Jello. Even if you didn't get your votes in to Mr44 in time, your assistance will be required for the actual countdown. (More on that later, but I think you know where I'm going...  )
But don't let that stop you from posting your ten here, if you'd care to.
I'll see if I can get #10 posted before the end of the day (Pacific Standard Time, that is.)
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darthdrago
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 2:13pm
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS ** #10 Posted
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10)Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, Germany
Wiki entry
Erwin Johannes Eugen Rommel (15 November 1891 – 14 October 1944) was one of the most famous German field marshals of World War II. He was the commander of the Deutsches Afrika Korps and also became known by the nickname "The Desert Fox" for the skillful military campaigns he waged on behalf of the German Army in North Africa. He was later in command of the German forces opposing the Allied cross-channel invasion at Normandy. He is thought by many to have been the most skilled commander of desert warfare in all of World War II.
Rommel's military successes earned the respect not only of his troops and Adolf Hitler, but also that of his enemy Commonwealth troops in the North African Campaign. An enduring legacy of Rommel's character is that he is also considered to be a chivalrous and humane military officer in contrast with many other figures of Nazi Germany. Most captured commonwealth soldiers during his Africa campaign report to have been largely treated humanely, and orders to kill captured Jewish soldiers and civilians in all theaters of his command were defiantly ignored. Following the defeat of Axis forces in North Africa, and whilst commanding the defence of Occupied France, his fortunes changed when he was suspected of involvement in the failed July 20 Plot of 1944 to kill Hitler.
What you said:
Apparently not much.  According to Mr44, most folks PM'd their ten choices, but with little to no personal comments about each one. However, it should be noted that Rommel actually made a majority of lists, but was never very high up in the rankings. In terms of total points earned, he just beat out Hitler to make #10.
What Drago says:
I'm not surprised by Rommel's appearing on most folks lists, but I do admit to be surprised that he didn't end up much higher in the final ranking. I myself placed him at #5. Wiki states that Rommel fought his campaigns in North Africa as Krieg ohne Hass (war without hate): he was a professional doing a professional's job against enemies that he considered to also be professionals. It's fascinating to see that in such a destructive and ruinous war, here was an adversary that did not take the conflict personally. When I posted that Hitler's ass-backwards meddling with the German High Command (OKW) hurt more than helped, it was Rommel I was mostly thinking of. To me, a fully-supplied Rommel with carte blanche of movement on D-Day equals  . It's possible that we might have still prevailed on D-Day just the same, but I hate to think of what the cost would have been...
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 2:37pm
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Countdown Discussion)**
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I think his ranking matches up to who he was. He was certainly well respected by both sides, but as an actual leader, he certainly had his flaws.
I'd say the main factor that would prevent him from obtaining a higher ranking would be his in-adaptability. He certainly embraced Blitzkrieg style tactics, but would engage in behavior like outdistancing his anti-aircraft and other support units and such. In fact, I think Rommel was hit by Allied ground attack aircraft later in the war because he left his armored column undefended. He was an excellent commander, but it was almost as if he could only do one thing at a time well.
Overall, he was an old school general in every sense.
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Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
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Peter Shoomaker
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GrandAdmiralJello
Title:
Emperor
• EUC
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Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
12/24/07 4:44pm
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Countdown Discussion)**
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Yeah, I see what you mean.
I'd be happy to help out there.
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Roma Æterna|SPQR Imperium Sine Fine "Moribus antiquis res stat Romana virisque" -Ennius, Annales "Tu regere imperio populos, Romanæ, memento;hæ tibi erunt artes; pascisque imponere morem, parcere subjectis et debellare superbos" -Virgil, Aeneid
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DarthNidLoc
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
12/26/07 6:05pm
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Countdown Discussion)**
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1. Alexander
2. Genghis Khan
3. Gaius Julius caesar
4.Rommel
5. Patton
6. Oda Nobunaga
8. Montgomery
9.Pompey Magnus
10. David Stirling(founder of the Specail Air Service, father of the modern concept of Special Forces)
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darthdrago
Registered:
Dec '03
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Date Posted:
12/26/07 7:48pm
Subject:
RE: ** The Senate's TOP 10 MILITARY LEADERS (Countdown Discussion)**
- Date Edited:
12/26/07 7:49pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
darthdrago
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DarthNidLoc posted:
1. Alexander
2. Genghis Khan
3. Gaius Julius caesar
4.Rommel
5. Patton
6. Oda Nobunaga
8. Montgomery
9.Pompey Magnus
10. David Stirling(founder of the Specail Air Service, father of the modern concept of Special Forces)
Rommel over Patton? Good thing that Patton's not around to see that. 
Oda Nobunaga was also an fascinating choice. I'm guessing that few (if any) other voters considered a samurai warlord.
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