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Author	Topic: The root causes of terrorism
LostOnHoth Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 2/13/08 11:09pm Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	But that argument doesn't necessarily work where the possession and occupation is illegal in the first place. There is an injustice about it that makes people angry. They're even angrier because the international community has done exactly nothing about applying sanctions to Israel and the conditions of the occupation have degenerated into something utterly disgusting and unlivable. Consider the effects of over 1 million people hemmed into the tiny Gaza strip, overcrowded, barricaded in, without reliable electricity, food, medicine or water supplies. It's a human pressure cooker. There is simply no foundation to develop "strong and stable" communities in Gaza for the Palestinians. It's a circus. It's really no surprise that Hamas has so much popularity. If a Palestinian leader were to utter your example given above in public, he would be lynched. In my view there can't be a unilateral "first step". Israel did that when Sharon ordered the withdrawal of a number of settlements from Gaza. It didn't work because it was a unilateral move and there was no symbolic or meaningful basis behind it. The Australian government has just said "sorry" to its stolen generation. The apology had bi-partisan support and I think went a long way towards achieving reconciliation in our country. The Israeli government and Hamas leadership need to do the same thing - acknowledge the past, acknowledge the victims and then propose a reconciliation. -----signature----- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Mr44 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 2/13/08 11:26pm Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism - Date Edited: 2/13/08 11:51pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Mr44
	Yeah, I can accept that. All I am saying that even if the occupation is illegal (and I'd certainly debate the circumstances regarding that, but it's not important now) then Hamas making themselves look like just as big of jackasses isn't going to change the legality of Israel's actions. The solution to Gaza doesn't sit with Israel, as Israel is just the facilitator. The solution to Gaza rests with the 1 million people in the PA itself, or more realistically, the representatives the people choose to invest in. Simply, self-determination is controllable, focusing outward isn't. -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 2/14/08 2:10am Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	Mr44, although I'd be the first one to acknowledge that a solution has to come from both parties, I must say I find your analysis of internal Palestinian politics lacking. "The solution to Gaza rests with the 1 million people in the PA itself, or more realistically, the representatives the people choose to invest in. Simply, self-determination is controllable, focusing outward isn't." That's so wrong. We told them to have elections. They did. Our governments didn't like the outcome. Our governments have a policy not to talk with the people who won the election. Moreover, we're actively supporting the people who lost the election, and supported putting them in power instead. Abas, I'm sorry to say, is a strawman. Self-determination, as it stands now, is being made impossible for the Palestinians. By our governments. -----signature----- TRACK THAT TRACK http://trackthattrack.blogspot.com frustrating you with sound
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Mr44 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 2/14/08 9:14am Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	No, I don't agree. Self determination is never impossible, you just have to work at it. The main problem I have with what you are saying is that it still casts the focus/blame on outside parties. Interaction with Israel and the rest of the international community is part of the result of such determination, it's not the beginning. The beginning of the journey lies with the Palestinians. Even with the elections, the PA degenerated into civil war, because both parties involved put their own interests above the common interests of the people. Now, the Palestinian Authority has the right to elect whoever they want, that's the point of elections. But electing an internationally recognized terrorist organization is going to bring with it consequences. The Palestinians themselves have to determine the direction they want to take before anything else. There is a concept called positive channelling of anger. Imagine the moral authority that a stable and unified Gaza would have if it then worked for the normalization of relations, instead of trying to force the results. The Palestinians can't elect a group that still calls for the destruction of Israel, and then wonder why Israel isn't interested in normalizing relations with them... However justified the group itself might feel, it's counter-productive. -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/14/08 12:08pm Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	Mr44 posted: No, I don't agree. Self determination is never impossible, you just have to work at it. The main problem I have with what you are saying is that it still casts the focus/blame on outside parties. That's a completely ignorant and offensive load of crap. Would you have told the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto that they shouldn't focus so much blame on outside forces and that they should work on building a functional society under whatever conditions they should find themselves in? Functioning basic infrastructure and a sound economy is an absolutely necessary precursor to having a functional social order. Corruption, mismanagement, and other dysfunctional aspects of Palestinian society are completely and totally inevitable given the conditions of the occupation. Current conditions are the best anyone can reasonably expect when Israel is actively attempting to choke out the Occupied Territories. It's also completely mind-boggling that you can make this argument considering that every attempt on the part of Palestinians to reform their government (by electing Hamas, which is a great deal more functional and less corrupt than Fatah) has been squashed by Israel and the US because (surprise) they don't like Hamas. The hypocrisy on this point is particularly disgusting: We want you to have a democratically-elected, less corrupt government... as long as you vote for people we approve of. Otherwise, screw you. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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Mr44 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 2/14/08 1:28pm Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	Well, you and I both know the weaknesses in using WWII references, so I'm not sure what specific point your example represents. Diz, you already know why Israel is occupying Gaza, it's because Egypt used it as a jumping point to try and destroy Israel itself 40 years ago. Since then, there has been an agreement where Israel is supposed to return Gaza, but circumstances on both sides have hardly been so simple. If Israel=Nazi Germany, then 2003 Iraq must also equal Nazi Germany, you can't have it both ways. You're reacting with such an emotional response because you're viewing the situation in such one sided terms. You honestly don't see a reason why Israel would react negatively to Hamas, separate from how Hamas views itself, beyond "they just don't like them?" I also don't understand your point about hypocrisy. The foreign policy of any one nation is based on its own interests. That's a constant throughout the world. If South Africa took a step backward and the people there elected a Grand Wizard for the KKK who then reinstated Apartheid, are you suggesting that every other nation in the world is just supposed to accept it as a matter of fact? Apartheid is just a policy after all. In this case, the people of South Africa made the choice to elect the Apartheid party, but South Africa's neighbors certainly don't have to interact with it as a result. If the US organized sanctions against South Africa because its actions where incompatible with US policy, are you suggesting that the US would be doing so out of hypocrisy? Or would the US only be hypocritical if you don't agree with the action being undertaken? Choice works both ways. Yeah, the people in the PA elected Hamas, but Hamas isn't a good faith negotiating body, it is an organization which operates from a single overriding principle. A principle which is not "amicable solution to the Palestinian issue." -----signature----- When you enter a room full of armed men, shoot the first person who makes a move- hostile or otherwise He has started to think and is therefore dangerous... -- Colonel "Paddy" Mayne, co-founder of the SAS
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Vader666 Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 2/14/08 1:41pm Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	I'm assuming that this thread is referring to terrorism attributed to religious fanatical groups rather than other forms of terrorism, mainly muslim terrorists. Well, there are two main reasons: political and religious. Take Iraq as an example. The conflict in Iraq stems from the fact that there are two main groups: the Sunnis and Shias. The Sunnis want a Sunni run government while the Shiis want a Shia one. Apparently, and I find this rather puzzling, Sunnis have a favorable view of Saddam Hussein. They don't like the fact that he's been ousted by the Americans and that Shiis now have the upperhand again. Since Iraq is predominantly a Shia population the majority of votes will be for a Shia president. Now you have Al-Qaeda in the mix. A terrorist group seeking to bring Islam back to the caliphate days, before British colonies took over and divided the Islamic empire into different states. They see the Shiis as heretics and therefore enemies of Islam. They are with a Sunni run state. Their plan is to create instability in the region to try and force the Americans out. This is more or less a political battle framed in the language of religion. Religion has really poisoned the situation. Truly religion is the root of the problem. Once you abolish religion, the conflict will go away. But thats really not happening. Neither side is willing to agree with the other. Its not looking good at all. Iraq has become a breeding ground for terrorists. Sunnis are joining al-Qaeda, Shias have developed their own terrorist groups to fight off the Sunni terrorists etc... So, in a sense, religion is the root cause. -----signature----- One day men will look back and say that I gave birth to the 21'st century
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LostOnHoth Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 2/14/08 2:45pm Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	I think that religion has certainly been the causee of conflict and wars over the ages, but I believe 'terrorism' is purely political and not grounded in religious doctrine or imperative. Suicide bombing and other forms of terrorism are the direct result of foreign occupation. Check out "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorists" by Robert Pape. Also, look at Northen Ireland. Whilst religious identity (Catholic & Protestant) was a factor the real driving force was political, ie, the sovereignty and independence of the people of Northen Ireland. Also, people tend to think that religion is the only driver in Arab mentality. This is wrong. The fact that a person is a Shia or a Sunni does not inform every action. The political situation in Iraq was simply that Saddam Hussein ran a governmemnt comprised of Sunnis who are a minority group in Iraq. Once he was deposed, the minority Sunni military personnel went off and formed the Sunni insurgency. But again, this is based upon political considerations not strictly religious. There was a power vacuum, the senior Sunni Hussein leadership and Republican Guard were allowed to disappear and came back with a vengeance in the form of an insurgency. This is a simplstic explanation I know but what os happening in Iraq now is not a "religious" conflict, it is a conflict caused by a disruption of power balances. -----signature----- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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dizfactor Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 2/14/08 2:48pm Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	Mr44 posted: Well, you and I both know the weaknesses in using WWII references, so I'm not sure what specific point your example represents. Don't get all Godwin on me, now. Godwin's Law should only apply to unwarranted comparisons. Mr44 posted: Diz, you already know why Israel is occupying Gaza, it's because Egypt used it as a jumping point to try and destroy Israel itself 40 years ago. That was 40 years ago! So much has changed since then that it might as well have happened on the moon! Does anyone seriously think either Egypt or Jordan is interested in invading Israel? Seriously? Mr44 posted: If Israel=Nazi Germany, then 2003 Iraq must also equal Nazi Germany, you can't have it both ways. Not at all. There's the slight difference in that Palestine doesn't belong to Israel, whereas human rights abuses in Iraq were contained within its own borders. The bar to justify intervention inside a country's borders is higher than the one to repulse an invasion. A better parallel would be to Iraq 1991, not 2003, and I supported the 1991 Gulf War. When Iraq went out and occupied someone else's country, I thought it was completely legitimate to organize a coalition under UN auspices to push them back over the line. I would support a coalition to liberate Palestine by force now the same way I supported a legal, UN-backed coalition to liberate Kuwait then. Bear in mind that I had three primary objections to the current war in Iraq: 1) It was illegal (and let's not open that can of worms again) 2) It was presented dishonestly on just about every level, unless they really believed their own bullpoop, which is almost worse. WMDs and links to al-Qaeda which did not exist, and unrealistic expectations of being greeted with flowers by cheering crowds in the streets 3) It was a strategic blunder because the same end result could be accomplished better by other means. If the Bush administration had hit the first two points, I would have supported the war, however begrudgingly, and had they not made serious errors in the initial occupation, I think they could have proved me wrong on the third. The actual war we got was, from top to bottom, not only a grotesque mistake compounded with further mistakes, but also a lie and a crime. That doesn't mean it couldn't have been done well in a way that I would have supported, nor does it mean that I think there wasn't something to be said to making up for our past crimes in Iraq by removing Saddam. Similarly, if you could manage to get UNSC clearance for a regime change in Tel Aviv, and making an honest case for it, I'd be open to considering the costs and benefits. In any case, we weren't the biggest strategic partners/donors to Nazi Germany. We were the biggest supporters of Saddam Hussein during the time of his greatest atrocities, but we had stopped that long before we invaded. We remain the biggest supporters of Israel even now. Mr44 posted: You're reacting with such an emotional response because you're viewing the situation in such one sided terms. You honestly don't see a reason why Israel would react negatively to Hamas, separate from how Hamas views itself, beyond "they just don't like them?" What exactly did the Israelis think was going to happen? At what point has Israel ever given the Palestinians any kind of hope that they were interested in fair negotiations? When you oppress people, and the only time you are ever able to get them to make any kind of concessions at all is when they get sick of the violence, you get an organization like Hamas. If the Israelis don't want the Palestinians to support Hamas, they need to stop kicking the crap out of them. Otherwise, they are bringing it all on themselves. Mr44 posted: Yeah, the people in the PA elected Hamas, but Hamas isn't a good faith negotiating body Israel has never been a good faith negotiating partner since the assassination of Rabin (and even that's debatable). I don't exactly see where they get off making demands on that front. "Good faith partner in the negotiations," in Israeli diplomatic parlance, seems to mean "puppet." I mean, for the love of Pete, they thought Arafat - Arafat - wasn't a good faith negotiator, whereas by Palestinian standards he was basically a sellout, an Uncle Tom (can we use that phrase under the TOS?) willing to suck up to the Israelis in exchange for table scraps and handshakes with American presidents. The only reason he was able to wring so much cooperation from the Palestinians as he was able to was because of the personal loyalty he had earned back in the day. The Israelis are either delusional to think that they could ever find a leader with any following in Palestine who would be more willing to roll over for them then Arafat was, or disingenous, cynically setting the bar so high that no one will meet it and they can keep on doing what they're doing. Mr44 posted: I also don't understand your point about hypocrisy. The foreign policy of any one nation is based on its own interests. That's a constant throughout the world. Yes, but not all countries portray themselves as these messianic nations with a destiny to liberate humanity. If you say you're committed to a Palestinian state, but you continually seek to undermine any attempt to actually get one off the ground, you're lying. Mr44 posted: If South Africa took a step backward and the people there elected a Grand Wizard for the KKK who then reinstated Apartheid, are you suggesting that every other nation in the world is just supposed to accept it as a matter of fact? Apartheid is just a policy after all. In this case, the people of South Africa made the choice to elect the Apartheid party, but South Africa's neighbors certainly don't have to interact with it as a result. If the US organized sanctions against South Africa because its actions where incompatible with US policy, are you suggesting that the US would be doing so out of hypocrisy? Or would the US only be hypocritical if you don't agree with the action being undertaken? Choice works both ways. There's the small matter that Israel controls all access to Palestine. The occupation could, in many ways, more accurately be called a blockade or a siege. Israel is free to choose not to deal with Palestine in the same way the US chooses not to deal with Cuba. It's not free to cut off Palestine from support and interaction with other parties. If the US were to enforce a blockade of Cuba, it would be considered an act of war. -----signature----- "Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century." Julian Dibbell "You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat." Gryph
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Vader666 Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 2/14/08 3:09pm Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	LostOnHoth I disagree. Suicide bombing is 100% faith based. If a suicide bomber did not believe that he will be rewarded with 72 virigns in paradise then he wouldn't blow himself up. Its not purely political either. Religion is playing a role here as I've explained earlier. Imagine if there was no Sunni-Shia conflict to begin with then people wouldn't fight each othe over who should run the country.. -----signature----- One day men will look back and say that I gave birth to the 21'st century
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LostOnHoth Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 2/14/08 3:15pm Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	Read "Dying to Win: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorists" by Robert Pape. His meticulous and thoroughly researched conclusions suggest otherwise. -----signature----- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Vader666 Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 2/14/08 3:22pm Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism - Date Edited: 2/14/08 3:25pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Vader666
	I also recommend "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason" by Sam Harris. He counters almost all the arguments found in your book. -----signature----- One day men will look back and say that I gave birth to the 21'st century
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LostOnHoth Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 2/14/08 3:41pm Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	I haven't heard of that book - I'll give it a read. -----signature----- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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SuperWatto Registered: Sep '00	Date Posted: 2/15/08 1:27am Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	Guys, no matter how many books you're flinging, I maintain that religion is not a motive but a means. Poverty and inequality, and most of all desperation, must be the motives. Must be. -----signature----- TRACK THAT TRACK http://trackthattrack.blogspot.com frustrating you with sound
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LostOnHoth Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 2/15/08 2:44am Subject: RE: The root causes of terrorism
	I agree wholeheartedly. -----signature----- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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