| Author |
Topic:
The root causes of terrorism
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Vader666
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
2/20 11:43am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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KK
Read the wikipedia article on the Kamikaze pilots here
In 1944-45, the Japanese were heavily influenced by Shinto beliefs. Among other things, Emperor worship was stressed after Shinto was established as a state religion during the Meiji Restoration. As time went on, Shinto was used increasingly in the promotion of nationalist sentiment. In 1890, the Imperial Rescript on Education was passed, under which students were required to ritually recite its oath to offer themselves "courageously to the State" as well as protect the Imperial family. The ultimate offering was to give up one’s life. It was an honor to die for Japan and the Emperor. Axell and Kase pointed out: "The fact is that innumerable soldiers, sailors and pilots were determined to die, to become eirei, that is ‘guardian spirits’ of the country. [...] Many Japanese felt that to be enshrined at Yasukuni was a special honour because the Emperor twice a year visited the shrine to pay homage. Yasukuni is the only shrine, deifying common men, which the Emperor would visit to pay his respects."[25] Young Japanese people were indoctrinated from an earliest age with these ideals.
Is that the proof you seek?
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
2/20 12:35pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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Vader666 posted:
KK
Read the wikipedia article on the Kamikaze pilots here
In 1944-45, the Japanese were heavily influenced by Shinto beliefs. Among other things, Emperor worship was stressed after Shinto was established as a state religion during the Meiji Restoration. As time went on, Shinto was used increasingly in the promotion of nationalist sentiment. In 1890, the Imperial Rescript on Education was passed, under which students were required to ritually recite its oath to offer themselves "courageously to the State" as well as protect the Imperial family. The ultimate offering was to give up one’s life. It was an honor to die for Japan and the Emperor. Axell and Kase pointed out: "The fact is that innumerable soldiers, sailors and pilots were determined to die, to become eirei, that is ‘guardian spirits’ of the country. [...] Many Japanese felt that to be enshrined at Yasukuni was a special honour because the Emperor twice a year visited the shrine to pay homage. Yasukuni is the only shrine, deifying common men, which the Emperor would visit to pay his respects."[25] Young Japanese people were indoctrinated from an earliest age with these ideals.
Is that the proof you seek?
No, it isn't.
You made the claim that suicide bombing is "100% faith based". The proof I seek is the basis for eliminating all other possible reason for such actions.
For example, I pointed out the case of soldiers willing to die in order to complete their mission. Your only response was to claim that it is completely different from a suicide bomber (which is an assertion as you give no proof of that). You also then make additional assertions in the last post I responded to, such as:Vader666 posted:
Someone who decides to save a loved one, on the other hand, does not have the luxury to contemplate death. However, I wonder if those who do sacrifice themselves actually believe in God. Usually there is some faith involved in there too. The person who does sacrifice himself for a loved one may believe that God would look kindly towards his brave act and therefore thinks that there is something in there for him too.
This is a classical example of circular reasoning. You are essentially saying that someone willing to sacrifice themselves is also faith based because they "may believe that God would look kindly towards his brave act". You are assuming that it is faith based in order to prove that it is faith based.
That is an assertion and a supposition. It is not proof of your claim that such acts are faith based.
The counter example of a soldier willing to die to complete his mission in and of itself disproves your supposition because it is not qualitatively different from the perspective of a suicide bomber.
Additionally, you are neglecting the bit that LostOnHoth posted from a study of suicide attacks from 1980 to 2003:The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions. . . . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland If suicide bombing is faith based, how do you explain the Tamil Tigers, who pioneered many aspects of the modern suicide attack? In fact, between 1980 and 2000, the Tamil Tigers had performed more suicide bombings than Hamas and Hezbollah combined.
Kimball Kinnison
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
2/20 12:43pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
- Date Edited:
2/20 12:49pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
king_alvarez
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That doesn't really prove anything, Vader666.
Also taken from the linked Wikipedia article:
"Seki thereby became the 24th kamikaze pilot to be chosen. However, Seki later wrote: "Japan's future is bleak if it is forced to kill one of its best pilots. I am not going on this mission for the Emperor or for the Empire... I am going because I was ordered to." It also states that during his flight, his commanders heard him say "It is better to die, rather than to live as a coward."
Obviously it was not faith based for this particular kamikaze.
Another example from the Wikipedia article:
"Many of the Kamikaze believed their death would pay the debt they owed and show the love they had for their families, friends, and emperor."
For these people, it wasn't religion but a desire to benefit their friends, family, and country that drove them to volunteer for these missions.
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Covert-Sniper
Registered:
Feb '06
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Date Posted:
2/20 1:49pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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The difference between soldiers going out, and perhaps giving their lives while fighting for their nation is different than suicide bombers in one area. Soldiers typically are fighting combatants. September 11th was against innocent civilians. (The Twin Towers that is)
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Vader666
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
2/20 1:56pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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Regarding the Tamil Tigers. Here is what Sam Harris says about it:
Several readers followed Pape’s and put forward the Tamil Tigers as a rebuttal to my claim that suicidal terrorism is a product of religion. But it is misleading to describe the Tamil Tigers as “secular,” as Pape often does. While the motivations of the Tigers are not explicitly religious, they are Hindus who undoubtedly believe many improbable things about the nature of life and death. The cult of martyr-worship that they have nurtured for decades has many of the features of religiosity that one would expect in people who give their lives so easily for a cause. Secular Westerners often underestimate the degree to which certain cultures, steeped as they are in otherworldliness, look upon death with less alarm than seems strictly rational. I was once traveling in India when the government rescheduled the exams for students who were preparing to enter the civil service: what appeared to me to be the least of bureaucratic inconveniences precipitated a wave of teenage self-immolations in protest. Hindus, even those whose preoccupations appear to be basically secular, often harbor potent religious beliefs.
This is a classical example of circular reasoning. You are essentially saying that someone willing to sacrifice themselves is also faith based because they "may believe that God would look kindly towards his brave act". You are assuming that it is faith based in order to prove that it is faith based.
And are you not assuming that sacrificial acts are not faith based? This is pure speculation on your part also. Although there is a clear distinction between doing something out of pure love for someone and acting on faith. Your analogy is still weak.
The data show that there is little connection between suicide terrorism and Islamic fundamentalism, or any one of the world’s religions. . . . Rather, what nearly all suicide terrorist attacks have in common is a specific secular and strategic goal: to compel modern democracies to withdraw military forces from territory that the terrorists consider to be their homeland
What has Al-Qaeda done so far for Palestine? Absolutely nothing. The 9/11 attacks as well as the London bombings were not designed to liberate Palestine. They were offensive attacks meant to terrorize Western nations. Bin Laden could've easily targeted specific Israeli sites but he didn't. He wants Islam to conquer the world. These are not secular movements.
Also, the conflict in Iraq is a Sunni/Shia conflict. Sunnis want a Sunni run government. Even if the Americans withdrew, this is not going to end the conflict in the area. Pape's argument falls short in explaining these conflicts...
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/20 2:03pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
- Date Edited:
2/20 2:06pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
SuperWatto
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Vader666 posted:
Although there is a clear distinction between doing something out of pure love for someone and acting on faith.
No, there's not... If there is, please provide a link 
There's only a clear distinction between good and bad for the... faithful.
Vader666 posted:
He wants Islam to conquer the world.
Untrue... At least, that's not the goal of those attacks. Vader666, it's statements like these that makes me wonder if your insistence on "terrorism=100% faith based" doesn't derive from sheer ignorance, and, dare I say it: fear.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
2/20 2:04pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
- Date Edited:
2/20 2:18pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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Vader666 - you should read some books on soldiers in WW1, WW11 and the Vietnam war. The bonds of comradeship that develops between soldiers in combat are such that soldiers throughout history have been willing to die for their country and their fellow soldiers. If you read citations for the US Medal of Honour and the Australian Victoria Cross that were awared posthumously you will read about soldiers who willingly died to save a fellow soldier or to acheive a strategic objective. Some of these people ran into a line of machine gun fire to retrieve a wounded soldier or to provide a momentary diversion.
The US Military Academy at West Point has for over 100 years held the creeed "Duty, Honour, Country". Thousands of US soldiers in various wars have willingly given their lives for this ideal.
If these actions are faith based, then they are based upon ideals of mateship, comradeship, sacrifice, duty, honour, country and not religious imperatives.
Many of these soldiers also happen to be Christians and Jews. Were all of their sacrifices based upon religious faith? No.
The only difference with 'suicide bombers' is the target and the field of combat. As we all know, the target for suicuide bombers is predominantly civilian as is the field of combat - hence the label of such actions as 'terrorism'. However, all of the same considerations apply - the Hamas suicide bombers are engaged in an armed struggle with Israel, they see themselves as soldiers in a battle against foreign oppression and occupation. They have commitment to the cause and to the ideals of 'duty, honour, country' and they also have the religious belief they will not burn in hell for thier actions.
Their actions are inspired by the imperative for a change in the political policy of foreign governments.
You constantly refer to the 9/11 attacks. These attacks were one of hundreds of terrorist suicide actions. You need to consider the whole and not just one.
Sam Harris does not appear to back up his views with any data or on the basis of any qulatitive research. He is entitled to his opinions and I look forward to reading the book when its arrives but from what I have seen to date his book raises some interesting arguments but is all very philosophical.
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Vader666
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
2/20 2:18pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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SuperWatto
Then what was the goal of the 9/11 attacks? They were certainly not meant to compel the Israeli occupiers out of Palestinian lands. Pape's argument falls short to explain this.
No, there's not... If there is, please provide a link
I don't have to provide a link. One person is doing it to save someone else. The other is doing it because he believes that God ordered him to do so.
LostonHoth
Comrades, soldiers, friends etc... fighting to help each other is something else entirely. I'm talking about suicide attacks.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
2/20 2:27pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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Then what was the goal of the 9/11 attacks? They were certainly not meant to compel the Israeli occupiers out of Palestinian lands. Pape's argument falls short to explain this.
Isn't that the entire counter point being made in this thread though? The WTC attacks represent a specific subset of terrorism, just as the actions of the Tamil Tigers represent another, just as the actions of the Red Brigade represented another, and so on.
Something can come from "category A" and not have it define every other example that fits under a similar concept.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
2/20 2:53pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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Vader666 posted:
Regarding the Tamil Tigers. Here is what Sam Harris says about it
Who is Sam Harris? What makes his opinion authoritative? Let's see, he dropped out of school while working on his degree in English, returned to finish his degree in philosophy, and is working on a degree in neuroscience. How does any of that make him an expert on suicide bombers?
Doing a little research on him, it seems that he has an axe to grind against all religions, and particularly Islam. He gives very little evidence in support of his claims, and like you, bases it all on assertions with scant proof.
The Tamil Tigers are actually not all Hindu. Quite a few of them are also Christian, and their main focus is political. They are not a religious organization at all. If Sam Harris (and by extension you) is claiming them to be one, then both of you need to provide a significant amount of proof.
Vader666 posted:
And are you not assuming that sacrificial acts are not faith based? This is pure speculation on your part also. Although there is a clear distinction between doing something out of pure love for someone and acting on faith. Your analogy is still weak.
Once again, go take a class in presenting logical arguments.
I don't have to prove that sacrificial acts are not faith based. Why? I am simply opposing your assertion. Because you have not proven your assertion, there is no reason for me to accept it. Therefore, disbelieving it is the default.
You made the claim. You need to back it up with something other than just repeating yourself. You need proof, data, and sources that demonstrate it. You also need to demonstrate that your sources are authoritative.
Otherwise, you are essentially trolling this thread. Your posting is certainly not up to the standards of the Senate. We require proof here, not simple assertion.
Kimball Kinnison
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I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/20 3:14pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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Vader666 posted:
I don't have to provide a link. One person is doing it to save someone else. The other is doing it because he believes that God ordered him to do so.
That was my attempt at humor. There's no such link. But your elaboration is off, though; a Palestinian suicide bomber does think he's doing it to save someone else, NOT because he believe God ordered him to do so.
Let's all listen to Mr44, this time
Can't compare apples and pears.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
2/20 5:30pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
- Date Edited:
2/20 6:51pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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Then what was the goal of the 9/11 attacks? They were certainly not meant to compel the Israeli occupiers out of Palestinian lands. Pape's argument falls short to explain this.
According to the transcript of the Osama Bin Laden speech claiming responsibility for 9/11, bin Laden says quite clearly:
"No, we fight because we are free men who don't sleep under oppression. We want to restore freedom to our nation, just as you lay waste to our nation. So shall we lay waste to yours."
He was also inspired by the destruction of towers in Lebanon by Israel during the 1982 Lebanon War. He says:
"I say to you, Allah knows that it had never occurred to us to strike the towers. But after it became unbearable and we witnessed the oppression and tyranny of the American/Israeli coalition against our people in Palestine and Lebanon, it came to my mind.
The events that affected my soul in a direct way started in 1982 when America permitted the Israelis to invade Lebanon and the American Sixth Fleet helped them in that. This bombardment began and many were killed and injured and others were terrorised and displaced.
I couldn't forget those moving scenes, blood and severed limbs, women and children sprawled everywhere. Houses destroyed along with their occupants and high rises demolished over their residents, rockets raining down on our home without mercy."
Full transcript here:
http://english.aljazeera.net/English/archive/archive?ArchiveId=7403
Here's another link to the transcript from another source:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3966817.stm
As you can see from the transcript the goal of the 9/11 attacks was clearly to inspire a change in the political policy of the US government in relation its activities on Muslim lands (Palestine, Afghanistan, Iraq) and to avenge those killed in US actions on Muslim lands by the use of terror and violence.
This is wholly consistent with Pape's study and conclusions.
Also, look at Peter Bergen's excellently researched book "Holy War Inc". Peter Bergen is the preeminent expert on Osama Bin Laden. After examining the glaring lack of bin Laden pronouncements on the cultural evils of the West (such as Hollywood, or pornography, or drugs or homosexuality) the author concludes that the al-Qaeda leader's war on the United States is a "political" war.
He says:
"The hijackers who came to America," writes Bergen, "did not attack the headquarters of a major brewery or AOL-Time Warner or Coca-Cola, nor did they attack Las Vegas or Manhattan's West Village or even the Supreme Court. They attacked the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, preeminent symbols of the United States' military and economic might."
Links below:
http://www.peterbergen.com/bergen/articles/details.aspx?id=26
http://www.foreignaffairs.org/20020101fabook6534/peter-l-bergen/holy-war-inc-inside-the-secret-world-of-osama-bin-laden.html
Your arguments villifying Islamic religious faith as the sole cause and basis of terrorism just don't stack up.
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Vader666
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
2/20 11:52pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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Pape's thesis is very generalized. Islamic fundemantalist groups are distinct from Tamil Tigers, ETA or any other terrorist group. No one thesis can explain it all.
I agree that the Tamil Tigers are essentially a political group. Though their suicide tactics being totally not faith-based is highly questionable. Now I cannot really prove that they are really faith based. I can only provide reasonable speculation. However, Muslim suicidal tactics are faith based.
According to Pew research data, many Muslims approve of suicide bombing and believe that the Quran and hadith justify such acts. Muslims act only in accordance with their religion. Whether the Kamikaze pilots or the Tamil tigers follow a non-faith based system is irrelevant in my opinion.
Hezbollah and Hamas may fit Pape's thesis that these are essentially political groups trying to liberate their country from foreign occupation. But Al-Qaeda and the conflict in Iraq do not. Al-Qaeda's actions are not purely political. Bin Laden is using the Israeli conflict as an excuse, otherwise he could've used his terrorist organization to liberate Palestine rather than ignite a conflict in Iraq and bomb targets in Saudi Arabia and other places. He labeled the American "occupation" as a crusade. He's fighting what he believes is a religious war.
The Sunni/Shia conflict in Iraq is also a religio-political conflict. It has nothing to do with the American presence in the region. Zarqawi himself sent a letter to Bin Laden saying that the Shias are heretics and should be killed. Bombing Shia sacred shrines is definately not political. Pape's thesis is not suitable in explaining these cases..
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Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
2/21 12:14am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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What is the difference between religious and political in a theocratic environment?
Just a thought.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/21 3:37am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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Good point flyer.
Let's face it guys... No matter how many experts or famous wanted criminals we quote, we'll never get a clear-cut answer. Vader666 thinks Bin Laden uses the Palestinian cause as a marketing magnet; I tend to agree. But we don't know for sure. Vader666 thinks Bin Laden is on an Islamic war of conquest; I tend to think that's debatable. But we will never know for sure, unless Bin Laden gets some epiphany bigger than Khadaffi's and tells us.
Anyway, having said all that: if Bin Laden wants to make the Americas into a khalifate, he's just very unrealistic. I wouldn't underestimate him like that. I'd say he wants to return to the days of the Islamic Golden Age; which would certainly be motivated by faith, but also by inequality and the feeling of having something taken away. How much of which, no-one can say - not even Bin himself.
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