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Topic:
The root causes of terrorism
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Covert-Sniper
Registered:
Feb '06
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Date Posted:
2/21 8:51am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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SuperWatto posted:
Vader666 posted:
I don't have to provide a link. One person is doing it to save someone else. The other is doing it because he believes that God ordered him to do so.
a Palestinian suicide bomber does think he's doing it to save someone else, NOT because he believe God ordered him to do so.
Um, how do you reach this assertion? Where is your proof?
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Jansons_Funny_Twin
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
2/21 12:33pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
- Date Edited:
2/21 12:34pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jansons_Funny_Twin
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Vader666 posted:
Muslims act only in accordance with their religion.
O rly? 
Covert-Sniper posted:
SuperWatto posted:
Vader666 posted:
I don't have to provide a link. One person is doing it to save someone else. The other is doing it because he believes that God ordered him to do so.
a Palestinian suicide bomber does think he's doing it to save someone else, NOT because he believe God ordered him to do so.
Um, how do you reach this assertion? Where is your proof?
Heh, irony.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
2/23 2:13pm
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
- Date Edited:
2/23 2:16pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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I think it is pretty obvious that most Islamic fundamentalist groups take action to effect political change, that is, to force the removal of foreign forces from land that they consider theirs, such as Palestine (West Bank & Gaza), Afghanistan, Lebanon and Iraq. This thesis has been the subject of considerable qualitative research, the results of which have been widely published for those bothered to actually read and be informed on the topic.
It is the height of ignorance, arrogance and bigotry to suggest that "all Muslims act only in acordance with their religion" and to suggest that all violence perpetrated by Muslims is inspired solely by the dictates of their faith. This is a convenient explanation if you wish to ignore the actual facts (read Pape & Bergen)and just focus on villifying all Muslims.
Of all the Muslims in the world, only a minority of them form violent groups and preach jihad. Those that do invariably are invloved in an active struggle against occupying foreign forces. They are militants that intepret their religious scripture in such a way as to provide a holy cause to their struggle.
Religious scripture is open to interpretation. If you read the Old Testament for example you can intepret it anyway you want. My reading of Exodus paints a picture for me of a wrathful God of war casting a plague over Egypt resulting in the indecriminate deaths of innocent children.
It is also pretty obvious that those Islamic fundamentalist groups who wish to remove foreign occupation and control also wish to replace any semblance of a secular government with a fundamentalist theocracy (ie, sharia law)as was the case in Iran when the Shah was outed.
Religious conflict of this nature is as old as time itself and is not limited to Islam. For those of you obsesseed only with Muslim 'terrorists' have a read of the history of the conflict between Catholics and Protestants over the last 600 years or so. It makes the conflict between Sunni & Shia pale by comparison.
I also utterly reject the assertion that the violence between Sunni & Shia in Iraq is solely based upon their religious differences. To suggest this highlights utterly an ignorance of the balance of political power held in Iraq under Saddam Hussein and the predictable results when that balance of power is toppled and a vacuum appears.
People act the way they do for a variety of reasons - religious faith is but one of them. If you're a Mormon or a Catholic, does that inform your every action or your every emotion or your every response and interaction with the rest of the world? The answer is no. The same is true of Islam.
If a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian is acting in a brutal fashion, see whether he is being brutalised. It's an old adage and still rings true today.
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Vader666
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
2/26 4:49am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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It is the height of ignorance, arrogance and bigotry to suggest that "all Muslims act only in acordance with their religion" and to suggest that all violence perpetrated by Muslims is inspired solely by the dictates of their faith. This is a convenient explanation if you wish to ignore the actual facts (read Pape & Bergen)and just focus on villifying all Muslims.
I never said that violence is solely inspired by scripture. Its mutli-factorial. If you read my initial post in this thread, I did mention that these are political struggles framed in the language of religion.
The Sunni/Shia conflict is essentially a political struggle. This is a very ancient political conflict in Islam. It started early on with disputes over the caliphate or basically who should succeed the prophet. Sunnis follow the companions of the prophet while Shias follow the family of the prophet. The Quran does not provide any information regarding such matters. Unlike Christianity, Islam was complicated by matters of successorship. Shias in Iraq were oppressed under Saddam and not allowed to perform their sacred rituals for almost 3 decades. Sunnis reveled at this because they saw Shii cries for "justice" (by following the family rather than the prophet's companions) to be blasphemous. When Iraq was liberated as it were, Saddam's grip on Shias was lost. As a result, the Sunni/Shia conflict erupted again. This has absolutely nothing to do with the American presence in Iraq. We're talking about religous differences in the region which has lead to a new breed of terrorists and suicide bombers in the area. Pape's thesis is inadequate to explain this, probably because Pape does not really understand whats going on between Sunnis and Shias.
As for Bin Laden, he doesn't appear to be interested in liberating Palestine. He wants Islam to return to the good old caliphate days. Wahhabism, Salafism and the Muslim brotherhood are all movements that plan to get Islam back to a system where a caliphate rules. Al-Qaeda is really a manifestation of these 3 movements. Again, Pape's analysis is inadequate.
Relgion does play a decisve role in these political struggles:
1. The Jews are attempting to hasten the end of time and the coming of the Messiah (which Christians believe has already taken place!) by invading Jerusalem.
2. Bush and his lackies believe in Armageddon and the 2nd coming of Christ brought by creating some sort of conflict.
3. Shias are awaiting the 2nd coming of the twelfth Imam who will come out of hiding in a time of "great political conflict." (Iraq???)
4. Bin Laden believes he is following Allah's commands by killing the enemies of Islam and cleansing the world of infidels.
To say that religion is exempt as a prime culprit in these struggles is very misleading in my opinion. Terrorism has arisen as a result of religous fanaticism. Faith is driving these people into madness.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/26 6:06am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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If religion could be identified as a root cause of terrorism, then how do you explain the billions of peaceful believers?
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Vader666
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
2/26 6:15am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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The billions of peaceful believers are being used by the large minority of violent believers as a sheild. The "peaceful" believers are allowing the violent believers to conduct their operations. Therefore, violent believers will not be present if there weren't billions of peaceful believers.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
2/26 6:21am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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The same way Christians 'allow' the KKK to lynch people?
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Vader666
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
2/26 6:32am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
- Date Edited:
2/26 6:33am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Vader666
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The KKK emerged from the Christian faith. It is a product of Christian fundementalism. So yes, out of the billions of believers, a small mutant fundementalist group developed. If you had say, 100 believers instead of a billion, would there be a large minority of fundementalists? I think not...
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
2/26 6:51am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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Vader666 posted:
The KKK emerged from the Christian faith. It is a product of Christian fundementalism. So yes, out of the billions of believers, a small mutant fundementalist group developed. If you had say, 100 believers instead of a billion, would there be a large minority of fundementalists? I think not...
Boy do you need a history lesson.
The KKK was founded by six former Confederates: John C. Lester, John B. Kennedy, James R. Crowe, Frank O. McCord, Richard R. Reed, and J. Calvin Jones. It was created to resist Reconstruction and specifically to try and get rid of "carpetbaggers" and "scalawags". It was a purely political organization. After it was suppressed in the 1870s, it lay dormant until revived in 1915 by William J. Simmons.
Now, Simmons had been a preacher before then, but was suspended from those duties in 1912. When he reformed the KKK, he took inspiration from the 1915 film The Birth of a Nation, about the Reconstruction-era KKK. Simmons is the one who incorporated the idea of burning crosses, based on inaccurate scenes in that movie.
In fact, burning crosses has nothing to do with Christianity, other than the similarity of using a cross as a symbol. It actually derives from ancient Scottish practices. Burning a cross on a hilltop was considered a declaration of war, and a burning cross would be used to rally troops for combat. The original KK never burned crosses, but Thomas Dixon claimed they did when he wrote his books of fiction about the KKK (and those books later served as the basis for The Birth of a Nation). Dixon drew upon his own Scottish heritage in writing the books.
So, how does all of that add up to "emerg[ing] from the Christian faith"?
Kimball Kinnison
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Vader666
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
2/26 7:05am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
- Date Edited:
2/26 7:10am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Vader666
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KK
You are one K short of being a KKK yourself 
Anyhow, if what you say is true then we have a political faction emerging from a political dispute which is similar to a religious faction (terrorist groups) emerging from a religious dispute. Same analogy but different circumstances.
But no one is disputing that the KKK had elements of Christianity - anti-semitism, blacks as slaves, homophobia etc...so KKKs are still Christians. They're not purely a political group..
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
2/26 7:16am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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Vader666 posted:
KK
You are one K short of being a KKK yourself
Anyhow, if what you say is true then we have a political faction emerging from a political dispute which is similar to a religious faction (terrorist groups) emerging from a religious dispute. Same analogy but different circumstances.
No. You are assuming facts not in evidence (to borrow the legal phrase).
You still haven't shown that terrorist groups are religious in nature. Simply repeating your assertion doesn't change that.
Even saying that some groups wish to reestablish the Caliphate doesn't make them religious in nature. According to Sunnis, the Caliphate is the successor to Muhammed's political authority (remember he was both a religious and political leader). Traditionally, Sunnis would elect the new Caliph. It's only the Shi'a who combine the Caliph as both a political and religious leader (and the Shi'a are a significant minority among Muslims). Remember, bin Laden is a Sunni, not a Shi'a, and that would further demolish arguments that al Qaeda (and related groups) is a religious-based organization.
Kimball Kinnison
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Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
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Vader666
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
2/26 7:49am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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The politics is based on a religious creed. Sunnis and Shias have a different political system based on the same religion. You cannot seperate religion from politics. The political conflict is a direct result of the faith.
Shias believe that their leader should be divinely guided, hence the development of a family line with the prophet. The Sunnis were concerned with power and wealth. Caliphs used religion as a means to control people and gain power. They're not purely political. In other words, we have essentially two religious groups fighting each other. They have different political ideals but they are faith-based.
The "political" struggle in Iraq will never end until the religion is abolished. You can only stop the violence between them but not the dispute itself which has been going on for centuries.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
2/26 7:57am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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Vader666 posted:
The politics is based on a religious creed. Sunnis and Shias have a different political system based on the same religion. You cannot seperate religion from politics. The political conflict is a direct result of the faith.
Shias believe that their leader should be divinely guided, hence the development of a family line with the prophet. The Sunnis were concerned with power and wealth. Caliphs used religion as a means to control people and gain power. They're not purely political. In other words, we have essentially two religious groups fighting each other. They have different political ideals but they are faith-based.
The "political" struggle in Iraq will never end until the religion is abolished. You can only stop the violence between them but not the dispute itself which has been going on for centuries.
Then back up your claims with data.
You haven't done that. Instead, you keep asserting things. PPOR: Post Proof Or Retract.
You are basically claiming that anything that has ever been associated with religion in any way is religious in nature. That is really stretching things. You've not established any logical or factual causal link between religion and terrorism.
Kimball Kinnison
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Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
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Vader666
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
2/26 8:22am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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You want me to back-up my claims with data that show that these terrorist groups are religious and not politically based?
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Vader666
Registered:
Mar '03
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Date Posted:
2/26 8:33am
Subject:
RE: The root causes of terrorism
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You made the incorrect assertion that since Bin Laden is a Sunni muslim his actions are not religiously motivated. Sunnism is an Islamic religious sect just like Shiism. They just have a different political system.
I'm not sure what you mean by gathering data for this assertion. Obviously you presented a false dichotomy between religion and politics and I corrected you on that..
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