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Topic:
~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
2/10 6:56pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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you are going to occasionally get visits from Home Teachers, or missionaries, or someone else.
And only if the church members in your area bother doing it. On my mission we couldn't actually visit every one of the 900 members of record in our branch.
A troll doesn't make points, and ignores blatant facts and reason.
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We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
2/10 7:28pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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Look there are horror stories across all religions concerning exclusion and disenfranchisement. It is those stories which become newsworthy and come to the public's attention. So when I see a documentary on the Mormons which includes interviews with people who were excommunicated by the Church for questioning the accuracy of Church doctrine and Church history and interviews with people who were effectively expelled from the Mormon community for being homosexual then I balance that against the many good things the Mormon Church does for Mormon community and for the wider community. The same can be said for Catholic Christians who are not welcome in the Catholic community because of their sexuality etc
Scientology is no different - there are a number of people out there with horror stories to tell, but what about the million or so other Scientologists that have nothing but good things to say and who have benefitted from their Scientology experiences?
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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
2/10 7:57pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
- Date Edited:
2/10 7:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Geist
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Cults know how to keep their members loyal, Hoth. Look at Steven Fishman; he was happy and loyal even after the CoS ordered him to kill a man, then himself, to cover up their crimes. It wasn't until years after the CoS betrayed his trust that he started speaking out against them. (He was so far gone, they had him convinced he could see through walls, leave his body, and recall a past life as the biological father of Jesus.)
Remember Battlefield Earth, and all the talk of gaining "leverage" over people? You know how the CoS' auditing practices involve telling the CoS your darkest secrets? Yeah. If you'd been compelled into giving the CoS all your money, you'd want to believe it was for a good cause too, especially if they had all your secrets on file.
Or, as someone else put it, "A real religion gives you things for free and lets you come and go as you please. Scientology makes you pay for everything and rules your life with an iron fist."
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Joe Biden posted:
What do you talk about when you have nothing to say?
What do you talk about when you cannot explain the last
eight years of failure? You talk about the other guy!
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
2/10 8:09pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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I just got a check in the mail from my LDS university that gave me $500 for no other reason than I managed to finish school quickly and make a spot available for someone else.
If I counted all the money the LDS church has in some form given or invested in me, it would be ten times what I have given in the past 10 years. Of course now I'm prepared to work and give back, but up until now I feel like I have recieved far more than I have given, and that isn't even counting the spiritual.
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A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
Theodore Roosevelt
We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.
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darth_nemisis
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
2/10 9:11pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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I would like to bring up something I just found out about, and something that has yet to be discussed. A group called Free Zone. They are a group of ex-Scientologists who formed their own group based on the teachings and beliefs of Scientology but offer everything at no cost. To me, this is a wonderful group, but, naturally, it is a group hated by Scientology who call these members "squirrels" and say that Free Zone is "a small clique of ex-members who are no longer in the Church and now seek to spread lies about their former religion." The Co$ also has also filed numerous lawsuits against the group claiming copyright and trademark infringement. Why would they do that? Because they do not want their members knowing that they can get the teachings of Scientology other than within the Co$.
And I found the following quote by L. Ron Hubbard to be quite interesting: "Dianetics is not in any way covered by legislation anywhere, for no law can prevent one man sitting down and telling another man his troubles, and if anyone wants a monopoly on dianetics, be assured that he wants it for reasons which have to do not with dianetics but with profit."
That seems awfully strange because the Co$ is doing just what Hubbard says is for reasons of profit.
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 ~Dark Lord - Acolytes of Darkness (SWC)~ My new homepage! http://www.aaronnemisis.com !~!~stormBoards now available~!~! http://stormboards.aaronnemisis.com/
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
2/10 10:10pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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Ah, I see. So every Scientologist is a dupe being held against his/her will by manipulation and blackmail.
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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
2/10 10:33pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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LostOnHoth posted:
Ah, I see. So every Scientologist is a dupe being held against his/her will by manipulation and blackmail.
Straw man, anyone?
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
2/10 10:35pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
- Date Edited:
2/10 10:42pm (4 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Geist
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And peer pressure. And promises of eventual godhood that tend not to pan out.
What separates a cult from what we'd normally call a religion isn't size or age, but tactics and behavior.
I was close once — proximity-wise, at least — to another cult, called the International Church of Christ. It was founded about 35 years ago by a guy named Kip McKean, who hit on the idea to create a moneymaking cult that blended in with the public by disguising it as a legitimate Christian church. Like any other Christian church you'd see, it preached about Jesus, and the Bible, and baptism, and everything you'd expect there.
Unlike most other Christian churches, it also employed textbook cult tactics, both in how it recruited members and how it kept them. One of its main recruitment tactics was a technique called "love bombing," where large groups of members would seek out new recruits, act like their best friend until they joined, keep up the affection for a couple of weeks, and then withdraw it unless the new recruits did exactly as they said. Like many cults, including the CoS, they used this technique where it's most effective: College campuses, where people are often alone and unsure for the first time in their lives, and vulnerable to people who prey on that.
Like the CoS, the ICC also demanded considerable amounts of money from each of its disciples — much more than a normal Christian church would — and that money, as with Scientology, went straight up to the rich Church authorities while its rank-and-file members crammed themselves into small apartments in groups of eight and ten. (To its credit, the ICC still raked in far less cash from its members than the CoS does.) And like Scientology, the ICC exerted almost total control of its members' lives — again, much more so than a normal Christian church. The ICC would tell its members what classes to take, who to associate with, who to date, when to marry them, how often to have sex. Under their hierarchy, members owed unquestioning submission to their superiors' orders — even if ordered to sin. And speaking of sin, part of the initiation process involved writing up a list of confessions, handing the church all your darkest secrets.
From the outside, the ICC looked like any other church — its members looked like a happy, thriving community. But the deeper you go, beneath all the smiles, the uglier it gets. Step outside the boundaries they set for you, and they'll turn their love bombing around 180 degrees. I saw it happen. It got ugly. Oh, and all other religions, including other Christian denominations, are incorrectly baptised and bound for Hell, apparently. (Kinda like how Jesus was the reincarnation of Xenu.)
In more recent years, the ICC has more or less disbanded after internal strife and external pressure, although some pockets of the church still use the same old tactics here and there.
If you're wondering how anyone could willingly drink the Kool-Aid, it doesn't happen overnight. They don't even tell you the Xenu story until you level up to OTIII, which, by some accounts, only about 10% of the CoS' members ever do. They start by telling you things that make sense, offering affection, earning your trust, and then using that trust to take you where they want you little by little. And most of the mid-ranking members have gone through the same process as you have, and have become true believers themselves; they're out to save your soul at any cost. The more vulnerable and unaware you are when you start out, the more likely a target you become.
Which brings us to the whole Anonymous thing. Say what you want about the group, but their attention-grabbing and flier distribution has done two good things: One, it's showing people that young people can be motivated to stand up for a worthy cause, and two, it's helping make potential victims aware of what they're getting into.
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Joe Biden posted:
What do you talk about when you have nothing to say?
What do you talk about when you cannot explain the last
eight years of failure? You talk about the other guy!
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
2/10 10:48pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
- Date Edited:
2/10 10:51pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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I hold no brief for the Church of Scientology but your assertions are ridiculous. I have a good friend who joined the Church of Scientology in Melbourne at a particularly low ebb in his life. He was vulnerable and the Scientologists who stalk the streets offering "personality tests" fell upon him like the vampires that they are. He got involved for a couple of years and then left. He left without incident, without any emotional or financial blackmail or death threats or threats of violence. Nobody kidnapped his puppy or kitten and held it to ransom.
Now, he came away from the Scientology experience a much happier and centered person. He had more general knowledge and was more "there" when engaged in conversation.
So please don't try and tell me that everybody who goes to the Church of Scientology is somehow necessarily maimed for life.
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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
2/10 10:55pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
- Date Edited:
2/10 11:25pm (5 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Geist
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Left without incident, eh? That's honestly the first I've heard of that ever happening. Of course, it could be that the Melbourne branch just doesn't have the clout to apply the same pressure U.S. and Canadian branches do. Intriguing.
Of course not everyone who's encountered a cult leaves "maimed for life." I know people who've left a couple of different cults successfully. David Macavige's own niece is an ex-member now (though her exit doesn't look to be quite so painless). Cults keep track of who they can reel in and who they'd be wasting their time on (because they're too stubborn, not interested, or otherwise unsuitable for what the cult wants), and your friend may have fallen into the latter category. Be glad he didn't end up like Steven Fishman, or, worse, Lisa McPherson.
Out of curiosity, did he ever happen to mention whether he reached clear, or how much he paid? How involved was he?
I wouldn't ask you to trust me, some guy you don't know on the Internet, over a good friend. Nothing of the kind. But your friend's experiences could help put the puzzle together, if he'd allow you to share them.
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Joe Biden posted:
What do you talk about when you have nothing to say?
What do you talk about when you cannot explain the last
eight years of failure? You talk about the other guy!
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VanillaPaste
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
2/10 11:52pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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LostOnHoth posted:
I hold no brief for the Church of Scientology but your assertions are ridiculous. I have a good friend who joined the Church of Scientology in Melbourne at a particularly low ebb in his life. He was vulnerable and the Scientologists who stalk the streets offering "personality tests" fell upon him like the vampires that they are. He got involved for a couple of years and then left. He left without incident, without any emotional or financial blackmail or death threats or threats of violence. Nobody kidnapped his puppy or kitten and held it to ransom.
Now, he came away from the Scientology experience a much happier and centered person. He had more general knowledge and was more "there" when engaged in conversation.
So please don't try and tell me that everybody who goes to the Church of Scientology is somehow necessarily maimed for life.
Then change "everyone who leaves etc. etc." to "most everyone who leaves etc. etc., and by the way there are many documented cases of ruined lives to prove this."
The point is not that there exists the potential for Scientology to do good, but that it has committed among the most grievous harms of any corporation in this country in the past couple decades, and continues to do so. It is understandable of you to defend your friend, but we are not out to get your friend nor are we out to get any other particular person involved in the group, but using your friend as the end-all example of the good of Scientology is the same as Fox 11 using one Anon who we didn't agree with as the end-all example of all Anon.
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"A movement has arisen. It has no leaders. It has no authorities. This movement is self directed by each member's own moral compass, and every individual walks in the same direction because that compass points to what is right" - Anonymous
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
2/11 12:38am
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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You're misrepresenting what I wrote in my post. I'm not using my friend as an "end-all example of the good of Scientology". As I said, I have no brief for the Church of Scientology. My point was simply that there are people out there who have had a positive Scientology experience. There are also millions of practising Scientologists out there and I don't accept that even a majority of them are only there because of manipulation or duress. They are there because they want to be there and somehow find value and meaning in it all. I don't know how - my reading of Dianetics is that it is all quasi-psycological babble. But hey, whatever works for you. I find most aspects of Christianity equally as ridiculous.
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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
2/11 2:29am
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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LostOnHoth posted:
You're misrepresenting what I wrote in my post. I'm not using my friend as an "end-all example of the good of Scientology". As I said, I have no brief for the Church of Scientology. My point was simply that there are people out there who have had a positive Scientology experience. There are also millions of practising Scientologists out there and I don't accept that even a majority of them are only there because of manipulation or duress. They are there because they want to be there and somehow find value and meaning in it all. I don't know how - my reading of Dianetics is that it is all quasi-psycological babble. But hey, whatever works for you. I find most aspects of Christianity equally as ridiculous.
This right here is why I have tried to be clear that I do not have a problem with Scientology's beliefs or doctrines. I believe that everyone is entitled to believe as they wish.
My problems with Scientology are entirely based on the illegal and unethical actions that have been committed by the Church.
Kimball Kinnison
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Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
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darth_nemisis
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
2/11 7:20am
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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Kimball_Kinnison posted:
This right here is why I have tried to be clear that I do not have a problem with Scientology's beliefs or doctrines. I believe that everyone is entitled to believe as they wish.
My problems with Scientology are entirely based on the illegal and unethical actions that have been committed by the Church.
Indeed, that is why I hold no grudges against a group like Free Zone.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
2/11 11:51am
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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This is an excerpt from the BBC documentary Scientology and Me.
Tommy Davis is crazy
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Obama/Biden '08
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