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Topic:
~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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darth_nemisis
Title: Host:
Acolytes of Darkness
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
2/12 12:09am
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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I am going to have to say that the journalist in that clip was not calling $cientology a cult because of its religion, but based on their actions. I can't say I disagree.
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Back to the initial topic, personally I don't think any label of scientology justifies the attempts to try to shut down scientology's websites and other tactics like that.
Those tactics were idiotic. Funny, but idiotic. They only worked for a few days, and were illegal, which could have tarnished the reputation of Anonymous and made it hard for a lot of people to take them serious. They have said that they have stopped officially doing that, because they do not wish to do anything that is illegal. Anonymous only wishes to "systematically dismantle" $cientology through peaceful/lawful ways. And I have heard critics of $cientology say that they would rather have the website up so people can see how ridiculous it is.
And again, Anonymous and it's supporters do not have a problem with what Scientologists believe, they only have a problem with the Co$ itself. We do not care at all what they believe in, let them believe what they want. But we do not want the Co$ limiting free speech, hurting/killing others, ruining peoples lives, scamming thousands into paying thousands upon thousands of dollars and alienating family members from each other; it's wrong. If they want to believe in what Co$ teaches them for thousands of dollars, they should join Free Zone and learn everything for free.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
2/12 5:05am
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
- Date Edited:
2/12 5:15am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Kimball_Kinnison
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darth_nemisis posted:
And again, Anonymous and it's supporters do not have a problem with what Scientologists believe, they only have a problem with the Co$ itself. We do not care at all what they believe in, let them believe what they want. But we do not want the Co$ limiting free speech, hurting/killing others, ruining peoples lives, scamming thousands into paying thousands upon thousands of dollars and alienating family members from each other; it's wrong. If they want to believe in what Co$ teaches them for thousands of dollars, they should join Free Zone and learn everything for free.
I agree on some points and disagree on others.
I agree that it is important to oppose Scientology (or anyone else) infringing the free speech rights of others, and other criminal actions should be blocked at every opportunity.
However, it's really none of my business if someone chooses to donate money to their church. Personally, I try to live the biblical law of tithing, donating 10% of my income to my church. I make a good bit over $50,000 per year, and for the past few years I have donated well over $5,000 each year to my church. I have friends of many different religions and denominations who similarly donate a fair portion of their incomes to their churches. Should all of our churches be criticized for that as well?
The donations paid to a church by its members are really no one else's concerns. Yes, if the church in question is taking the money as a fee for a service, they should face legal penalties if they do not provide that service (a staple of contract law), but just because people pay "thousands upon thousands of dollars" to a church does not make it a bad thing, nor does it make it any of your business.
Similarly, it's really none of your business if a church alienates family members from one another. There are so many things that alienate family members from one another. The only ones that really involve you are the ones in your family, and the ones that involve breaking the law. Can it be harmful? Of course. Does that give you the right to step in? Not at all.
Kimball Kinnison
EDIT: Basically, the way I see it is that a church is free to discipline its members, but the limit of what it can do in that respect is to eject them from the Church (excommunicate them). Similarly, a person has the right to leave a church at any time, for any reason. A church can't force people to pay them money, nor does it have the right to imprison someone or perform any sort of violence against them. A church has absolutely no rights or authority over those who are not members of that church.
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darth_nemisis
Title: Host:
Acolytes of Darkness
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
2/12 8:04am
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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I do see where you're coming from. But where I have a a problem with the CoS taking money is it's well over 5,000 dollars a year. And it's not "donations". Like I said in a previous post: " I came across a document that outlined the costs of Scientology courses. It detailed the costs for attaining the state of "Clear", taking the OT courses, obtaining the "Key to Life", and the cost to a lifetime membership to become a member of International Association of Scientology (IAS). I added up the cost, and it came to a total of about $500,000. Just going through OTIII level costs approximately $150,000. For through OTVIII is about $270,000 which is ridiculous! A lot of this money goes to the high ranking members! And they do not even have to pay taxes on it! It's wrong, no other way to but it. And the best part about it is that all they learn in these courses are practically what we've been saying about thetans and Xenu and all this."
To me, that's ridiculous. That's a lot of money. Like you said, you make just over 50,000 a year. If you were in the CoS, it'd take you about 10 years to come up with that type of money, without spending any money on anything else. Also, I can't believe I left this out of the post, but the tax exempt status of the Co$; they do not have to pay taxes on the money that they receive. And they have been known to break federal laws as well as the tax exempt laws in the past. Here are some laws that they have broken and how they did:
[quote]The Church of Scientology has historically paid it's high ranking officials substantial amounts of money, exceeding that of a reasonable salary. L. Ron Hubbard didn't die a despot for a reason, the church made him money. This breaks 503(a)(1), as it is a prohibited transaction as defined by 503(b)(2); “Pays any compensation, in excess of a reasonable allowance for salaries or other compensation for personal services actually rendered, to; --the creator of such organization; a person who has made a substantial contribution to such organization...”
The Church of Scientology has given special preferential treatment to celebrities, such as Tom Cruise and John Travolta, by offering high level training at an accelerated rate, while denying other members of the church the same privilege. This breaks 503(a)(1), as it is a prohibited transaction as defined by 503(b)(3); “makes any part of its services available on a preferential basis to; --a person who has made a substantial contribution to such organization...”
The Church of Scientology has been involved in several federal court cases including federal indictments in response to Operation Snow White, a Scientologist plot which included a series of infiltrations and thefts from 136 government agencies, foreign embassies and consulates, as well as private organizations critical of Scientology, carried out by Church members; the single largest infiltration of the United States government in history with up to 5,000 covert agents. Other cases include Operation Freakout, and the mysterious deaths of Lisa McPhearson and Josephus Havenith.[/quote]
And alienating people from their families could be none of our business. Though, is it any business of others to stop KFC from the way they get its chicken? (A bad example, and I apologize) Even though it may be brutal and wrong, let them do it the way they want. Though, people still protest about it. And I don't see why we can't.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
2/12 8:41am
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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Like I said, Kimball_Kinnison posted:
The donations paid to a church by its members are really no one else's concerns. Yes, if the church in question is taking the money as a fee for a service, they should face legal penalties if they do not provide that service (a staple of contract law), but just because people pay "thousands upon thousands of dollars" to a church does not make it a bad thing, nor does it make it any of your business.
If they are violating the law, then the appropriate way to handle that is to report them to the proper authorities, giving any evidence that you have to them for the investigation.
If they are charging for a service, then they have a legal obligation to provide that service.
All I am saying there is that I don't have a problem with them charging whatever they want for people to either join or advance within the religion. It is their organization, and their right to run it as they wish within the limits of the law. It isn't illegal for them to charge their members money for those teachings.
As I said before, my problem with Scientology lies with both their illegal actions (including the avoidance of tax laws) and their unethical behavior (such as their legal harassment of critics). They aren't infringing anyone's rights by charging for teachings. The do infringe people's rights when they try to sue them into oblivion or when they violate society's laws.
Kimball Kinnison
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I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
2/12 10:28am
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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LostOnHoth posted:
What was inappropriate about it? He stated quite clearly that the interviewer's constant references to "sinister cult" were pissing him off, he stated his views on the protection of religious freedom under the Constitution and then he stormed off in a huff. He didn't spit, strike out, swear or threaten violence or death. He ended the interview when he felt he was losing control of his emotions. In fact, he is obviously media trained as he did precisely what media spokespeople are trained to do in those types of "interview" situations, that is, disengage.
You are making too much of it. Stick to the horror stories told by ex- Scientologists and the family members of Hubbard, you are on stronger ground there and the arguments are more compelling. Making a big deal of that video makes you come across as nitpicky.
"If you call my religion a cult, I'm can't be responsible of my actions" is a blatant threat of violence and is thus inappropriate. This shows that those Scientologists in charge are willing to go to great lengths to stop people from calling Scientology a cult.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
2/12 1:04pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
- Date Edited:
2/12 1:22pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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You are nitpicking. He was angry, he disengaged, there was no violence. Move on.
I completely agree with KK's position on the subject of church contributions and church discipline. You start criticising an organisation like Scientology for these things and you start down a slippery slope in respect of all other religions. Most old and established religions and institutions are extremely wealthy and that wealth is not necesarily proportionately shared. The main difference I can see between Scientology and say the LDS Church is how the two organisations appear to treat its non-conforming members or members that have been 'excommunicated'. The non-conforming/expelled Scientologists appear to be treated horribly by their ex church (law suits, threats, etc) whilst the excommunicated Mormons that I have seen interviewed don't seem to hold any major bitterness - they are excluded from the Mormon community but LDS spokespeople seem to admit and do not shy away from explaining that LDS doctrine can be harsh on those who don't or can't conform. This position is accepted by those excommunicated and the attitude seems to be "well, it's a shame that I cannot be part of the community but there are certain involiable standards and if I can't meet them then I can't be part of the Mormon community" - a far cry from death threats.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
2/12 1:17pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
- Date Edited:
2/12 1:18pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lord_Vivec
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LostOnHoth posted:
You are nitpicking. He was angry, he disengaged, there was no violence. Move on.
Of course I should move on. If I move on, this can just get hidden under the rug.
An interesting website:
Why are they dead?
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
2/12 1:36pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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Yes, it's a conspiracy to sweep such shocking actions of the Church of Scientology under the rug. OMG - that man in that video was just out of control, what a thug. 
Vivec - do you believe everything you read on the internet?
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
2/12 2:06pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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LostOnHoth posted:
Yes, it's a conspiracy to sweep such shocking actions of the Church of Scientology under the rug. OMG - that man in that video was just out of control, what a thug.
Vivec - do you believe everything you read on the internet?
I don't get my information from the internet.
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darth_nemisis
Title: Host:
Acolytes of Darkness
Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
2/12 2:37pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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He was out of control; he practically stalked John Sweeney. It was, as John Sweeney put it, "creepy".
Vivec, do you not read my posts?
darth_nemisis posted:
Here are some other excellent links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCGP-0545EU - outlines practically what myself and Kimball pointed out.
http://xenu.net/ - a good anti-scientology website.
http://www.xenutv.com/ - another good anti-scientology website.
http://whyaretheydead.net/ - a website that outlines some of the deaths caused by Scientoloty.
http://www.petitiononline.com/cosirs/petition.html
"Vivec - do you believe everything you read on the internet?"
In this case, he should. These cases are well documented facts, not just made up stories.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
2/12 4:17pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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darth_nemisis posted:
Vivec, do you not read my posts?
darth_nemisis posted:
Here are some other excellent links:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCGP-0545EU - outlines practically what myself and Kimball pointed out.
http://xenu.net/ - a good anti-scientology website.
http://www.xenutv.com/ - another good anti-scientology website.
http://whyaretheydead.net/ - a website that outlines some of the deaths caused by Scientoloty.
http://www.petitiononline.com/cosirs/petition.html
I guess I missed that 
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
2/12 6:10pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
- Date Edited:
2/12 6:27pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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If that is the case, then why post links to websites and rely on their content to support your crusade against Scientology?
I take any claim that information posted on a website with a clear agenda "are well documented facts" with a large handful of salt. If there is proof that the Church of Scientology Inc. were found guilty of the crimes attributed to it in those websites then post a copy of the Court Judgment or the sentence or a copy of the court due process that followed the indictments (if any). Something like that would really get my attention and give me something really compelling. Anybody, can post one sided stories with excerpts from various alleged newspapers on the internet and claim it is all true to whip people into a frenzy.
There's a lot of innuendo and dramatic music in those links but nothing really conclusive. Many people commit suicide or die because they change medication or don't take medication. Many Jehovas Witnesses have died because their faith forbids blood transfusions? Does that make the church killers?
Again, I'm not defending Scientology, I am not a fan but this psuedo conspiracy stuff you guys are posting just isn't that convincing if you take a a rational and objective view. I'm ready to be convinced but this stuff isn't doing it for me.
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darth_nemisis
Title: Host:
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Registered:
May '04
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Date Posted:
2/12 9:21pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
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Read - that is a published article from Paulette Cooper. It is very interesting. It details the torment that Paulette Cooper went through during the 70's and 80's due to Scientology.
The most shocking part of the story for me was "Jerry Levin" who moved in with Paulette. He always told her to step up on the ledge of the roof because she needed to be brave. He left her after a while and she later found he was actually a Scientologist. She wondered: "And even now I still wonder: why did Jerry want me to go up on that ledge with him? If he had pushed me over, everyone would have simply assumed that in my depressed state of mind, and rather than face a trial, I had committed suicide. Operation Freakout indeed."
That's scary right there.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
2/12 9:50pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
- Date Edited:
2/12 10:04pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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That is scary. If it's a true story. I would be interested to hear the Scientology version of events, ie, their side of the story before I rushed to judgement. I would also like to see the legal basis upon which the Church of Scientology files lawsuits against such authors. Even morally questionable organisations like the Church of Scientology are entitled to sue for libel if they have grounds that the contents of the publication are false and malicious.
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Darth Geist
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
2/12 11:10pm
Subject:
RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
- Date Edited:
2/12 11:43pm (14 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth Geist
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The deposition of a former Sea Org member.
The origin of Hubbard's "MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY." quote. Note how he refers to his followers as "customers."
LostOnHoth posted:
I would be interested to hear the Scientology version of events, ie, their side of the story before I rushed to judgement.
Understandable, but you'll have a hard time finding their side of the story. They don't talk about themselves much, especially when criticized. Rather than address criticism, official policy demands that they deflect or ignore it, then go on the attack.
The Penny Arcade forums have a guy who's apparently a bona fide Scientologist himself, and he claims — most likely truthfully — that he's never heard of Operation Freakout or Operation Snow White, and all he's heard about Xenu has come from outside the church. (He'd also never heard of the Free Zone, which is believable too; you think the CoS is going to tell anyone where they can get the same teachings for free?)
On a side note: As Wise Beard Man correctly points out, only about the top 10% of the church has been taught anything official about Xenu at all; anyone beneath that "isn't ready" to learn about him yet, and would "catch pneumonia and die" if they heard about him accidentally.
LostOnHoth posted:
I would also like to see the legal basis upon which the Church of Scientology files lawsuits against such authors. Even morally questionable organisations like the Church of Scientology are entitled to sue for libel if they have grounds that the contents of the publication are false and malicious.
Hear it from the man himself:
L. Ron Hubbard posted:
"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win. The law can be used very easily to harass, and enough harassment on somebody who is simply on the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he is not authorized, will generally be sufficient to cause his professional decease. If possible, of course, ruin him utterly."
- L. Ron Hubbard, A MANUAL ON THE DISSEMINATION OF MATERIAL, 1955
But, more specifically, when they sued Bare-Faced Messiah author Russell Miller, they claimed copyright infringement, both on the excerpts from their writings and on a picture of Hubbard's face. Miller countered that all the materials had been obtained legitimately, and that publishing the excerpts was both legal (Fair Use, or its UK equivalent) and in the public's best interest. The judge agreed, saying:
"... It is to my mind clear that the public interest in the affairs of the Church and in the life of its founder far outweigh any duty or confidence that could possibly be owed to Mr. Hubbard or the Church ... I have reached the conclusion that [the CoS'] application is both mischievous and misconceived and must be dismissed."
Note: At no point, to the best of my understanding, did the CoS tell the court that anything in Bare-Faced Messiah was untrue; only that it shouldn't be published.
Their other cases have run along similar lines. Here's a court doc from one of the cases, if you'd like to see.
Oh, and about Operation Freakout: Here's a scanned court document, detailing part of the CoS' plan to steal Cooper's (codename "Lovely's") fingerprints and plant them on a fake bomb threat to Henry Kissinger.
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