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Author	Topic: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
Darth Geist Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 3/3 4:16pm Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology - Date Edited: 3/3 4:25pm (4 edits total) Edited By: Darth Geist
	henchman24 posted: There isn't a single post on this thread, either made up or supported with sources, that gives a specific example of an evil Scientology is the cause of, that can't be said of another religion X 2. Judaism keeps twice as many child slaves in international waters as the CoS does? Really. Hinduism charges $1,000,000 for its teachings, as opposed to the CoS' mandatory $500,000? Didn't know that. Buddhists have sued one individual 40+ different times in six months, as opposed to the CoS' measly 20+? Fascinating. No other religion does even one of those things, but the CoS does them all. That enough for you? Face it, when you say, "the recognized religions of the world," what you mean is "Catholicism and maybe Islam." And even then, you have to reach back into the Dark Ages to find a Catholic comparison to what the CoS is doing here and now. -----signature----- Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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VadersLaMent Registered: Apr '02	Date Posted: 3/3 5:01pm Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
	I must interject here and say that the Catholic religion does not need to resort to nightmarish tactics anymore because they already rest upon the shoulders of the masses. Also they sit upon the top of the proverbial hill, and if there is one thing people liek to see is the fll of the mighty. There is a taint in the priesthood and one too many blackeyes and the whole thing will fall. Besides, there is a much more subtle approach to control as currently being practiced here in the U.S. where Christian groups get elected to schoolboards and try to get the Bible in public schools and blasphemey like ToE out of schools. -----signature----- Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic--Arthur C. Clarke Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from God--Michael Shermer I am officially Awesome.
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Lord_Vivec Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 3/3 6:08pm Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology - Date Edited: 3/3 7:16pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Lord_Vivec
	nm -----signature----- Lord Sithis, Dark Lord of Entropy Senator of the Disciples of Lady Lumiya and Lord Shadowspawn Sith Governor of the Imperial Knights! Resistance is futile! Sinrebirth for Sith Emperor '08 Iron Gauntlet of the Sith
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Darth Geist Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 3/3 7:11pm Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology - Date Edited: 3/3 7:33pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Darth Geist
	Pretty much any powerful organization has black marks on its record, religious or not. The U.S., for example; it got to the top, in part, by subjugating weaker parties like the Native Americans — often in very nasty ways. But, on the other hand, there's nothing we can do now about atrocities committed centuries before we were born. We can oppose cruelty and injustice in the world today, and we absolutely should, because — well, you know what Edmund Burke said: "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." It does no good to call out today's Catholic Church for crimes committed by the Spanish Inquisition — especially since, as LaMent indirectly points out, it's a very different church today. But it does help when people oppose modern-day evils, secular or religious. The CoS is an ideal target for that sort of opposition, for two reasons: One, it's nastier than most other groups today — only very shady governments and businesses compare — and two, unlike most of its contemporaries, it hasn't gained the foothold it wants yet in the mainstream establishment; thus, trying to block its criminal practices, if enough people try at once, is a realistic goal. Conversely, writing it off as "just another bump in the road" is just another way of turning a blind eye. Oh, and here's something interesting: The court testimony of ex-Scientologist Paul Grosswald. Check out the tape they play — about how German psychologists run every public school in the world, so it's okay for your kid to leave school and join the CoS. Then stick around for Grosswald's description of what powers you learn as you level up. -----signature----- Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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henchman24 Registered: Feb '08	Date Posted: 3/3 10:41pm Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
	Darth Geist posted: Judaism keeps twice as many child slaves in international waters as the CoS does? Really. Hinduism charges $1,000,000 for its teachings, as opposed to the CoS' mandatory $500,000? Didn't know that. Buddhists have sued one individual 40+ different times in six months, as opposed to the CoS' measly 20+? Fascinating. No other religion does even one of those things, but the CoS does them all. That enough for you? Face it, when you say, "the recognized religions of the world," what you mean is "Catholicism and maybe Islam." And even then, you have to reach back into the Dark Ages to find a Catholic comparison to what the CoS is doing here and now. In a past sense yes, the catholic church was vicious, but in modern day affairs evangelicals are far worse. If you think they wouldn't rule the US with an iron fist if they could pull it off then you are silly. In the states the message is spread with television and political bribery, in other countries they use guns, no real difference in the objectives though. And so what if I have 1 or 2 in mind specifically, it still doesn't help your argument, so now CoS is only the same as Chritianity and Islam, well done. Also the dark ages is comment is tough too, one of the bulk reasons the US exists as it does, is because of Christianity. Escaping religious persecution doesn't stop during the age of reason. Your specific alignments are impressive as well. I obviously had those 2 religions in mind, nice job going to the other extreme =P Way to line up the most persecuted religion in history with slavery. Then take the one with no God, and the one with too many Gods, and put them against things that arent even crimes. Firstly: Of all the religions/cults/governments/institutions of today and yesterday, the entire world over, that do some of the most amazingly effd up things, to make my jaw drop you bring me "kids in international waters" Slavery is a shame anywhere it happens, and it happens in all different forms the world over. Raising children from a young age to believe that sacrifing there lives in service to there God is equally as cruel, and it happens every day. Baptising a child before they can stand up or speak, let alone make up there own mind, is a more passive form. You may find this absurd, but how many of the worlds conflicts would be non existent if so many weren't raised in these boxes, to me one is infinitely more damaging. The other 2 things are in no way illegal, or cruel, or anything more than excessive. every religion leeches. At least CoS doesn't guilt trip you into thinking GOD wants you to do it, nothing wrong with "pay to play". We live is a horrible society filled with vultures who will prey on anyone they can, lawsuits are all over for things that offend "PC" minded individuals. Why should the CoS not be a part of this. Of all the crap that is written to defame the CoS, if only 10% of it was false, that would easily justify the number of suits they go through in that span of time. Again I would like to retsate that these last 2 things are in no way wrong. To the poster above who suggests that a religious institution can't be held resposible for something done in the past, when does that line in the sand occur?? When exactly does the past start? In that sense we can hardly hold the current incarnation of the CoS responsible for the actions of yesterdays CoS =D Sorry for the long post -----signature----- time and relative dimension in space
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Lane_Winree Registered: Mar '06	Date Posted: 3/3 10:42pm Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
	Reddit? Is that you? -----signature----- Author of the Rise of a Rogue trilogy: http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/20721759/p1 Current WIP: Redemption of the Exiles: http://boards.theforce.net/Message.aspx?topic=24000186&brd=10477&start=24026104 Team fic w/ Inyri: X-Wing: Illusion
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Lord_Vivec Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 3/3 10:47pm Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
	henchman24 posted: In a past sense yes, the catholic church was vicious, but in modern day affairs evangelicals are far worse. If you think they wouldn't rule the US with an iron fist if they could pull it off then you are silly. In the states the message is spread with television and political bribery, in other countries they use guns, no real difference in the objectives though. And so what if I have 1 or 2 in mind specifically, it still doesn't help your argument, so now CoS is only the same as Chritianity and Islam, well done. Also the dark ages is comment is tough too, one of the bulk reasons the US exists as it does, is because of Christianity. Escaping religious persecution doesn't stop during the age of reason. Your specific alignments are impressive as well. I obviously had those 2 religions in mind, nice job going to the other extreme =P Way to line up the most persecuted religion in history with slavery. Then take the one with no God, and the one with too many Gods, and put them against things that arent even crimes. Firstly: Of all the religions/cults/governments/institutions of today and yesterday, the entire world over, that do some of the most amazingly effd up things, to make my jaw drop you bring me "kids in international waters" Slavery is a shame anywhere it happens, and it happens in all different forms the world over. Raising children from a young age to believe that sacrifing there lives in service to there God is equally as cruel, and it happens every day. Baptising a child before they can stand up or speak, let alone make up there own mind, is a more passive form. You may find this absurd, but how many of the worlds conflicts would be non existent if so many weren't raised in these boxes, to me one is infinitely more damaging. The other 2 things are in no way illegal, or cruel, or anything more than excessive. every religion leeches. At least CoS doesn't guilt trip you into thinking GOD wants you to do it, nothing wrong with "pay to play". We live is a horrible society filled with vultures who will prey on anyone they can, lawsuits are all over for things that offend "PC" minded individuals. Why should the CoS not be a part of this. Of all the crap that is written to defame the CoS, if only 10% of it was false, that would easily justify the number of suits they go through in that span of time. Again I would like to retsate that these last 2 things are in no way wrong. To the poster above who suggests that a religious institution can't be held resposible for something done in the past, when does that line in the sand occur?? When exactly does the past start? In that sense we can hardly hold the current incarnation of the CoS responsible for the actions of yesterdays CoS =D Sorry for the long post -----signature----- Lord Sithis, Dark Lord of Entropy Senator of the Disciples of Lady Lumiya and Lord Shadowspawn Sith Governor of the Imperial Knights! Resistance is futile! Sinrebirth for Sith Emperor '08 Iron Gauntlet of the Sith
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Darth Geist Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 3/3 11:55pm Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology - Date Edited: 3/4 1:20am (4 edits total) Edited By: Darth Geist
	henchman24 posted: In a past sense yes, the catholic church was vicious, but in modern day affairs evangelicals are far worse. Granted. (Well, "worse" than the Inquisition is pushing it, but just barely.) And believe me, I have as much of a bone to pick with evangelicals as you do, for many, many, reasons. In fact, I'll go ahead and agree that the evangelical movement has damaged this country far more than the CoS has. That said, that doesn't give every other group a free pass to do what they want. Besides, as much as they'd like to be, evangelicals don't equal Christianity. There are plenty of charitable, fair-minded denominations out there; they're just much less vocal. henchman24 posted: And so what if I have 1 or 2 in mind specifically, it still doesn't help your argument It does if your argument is that the CoS is the same as "any other religion." It's clearly not the same; there are plenty of religions out there that genuinely promote peace and goodwill. If your argument is that the CoS is as bad as the most destructive other religions on the planet, well, that's something else entirely. henchman24 posted: So now CoS is only the same as Chritianity and Islam, well done. It's really not the same as either, if you look at them in detail. Again, go back and compare the teachings of Jesus to those of Hubbard. Compare Jesus' "Love your enemies" to Hubbard's "Destroy your enemies," or Jesus' "Give all you have" to Hubbard's "MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY." Say what you want about the evangelicals, but if they practiced what Jesus actually preached, we'd all be much better off. Or, as Gandhi said, "Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." henchman24 posted: Your specific alignments are impressive as well. I obviously had those 2 religions in mind, nice job going to the other extreme =P Pardon me, but which is more extreme: "All religions are equally reprehensible," or "No, not all of them"? henchman24 posted: Way to line up the most persecuted religion in history with slavery. Then take the one with no God, and the one with too many Gods, and put them against things that arent even crimes. You're reading a little too deeply into this, but that aside: Charging people hundreds of thousands of dollars for phony treatments — including phony AIDS cures — is a crime, or would be in this case, if Hubbard hadn't craftily started calling his business a religion in order to avoid that pesky accountability-for-fraud thing. Second: Clogging up the courts with massive, frivolous lawsuits, the only point of which is to "destroy your opponent utterly," isn't technically illegal, but it's still horrible. henchman24 posted: Firstly: Of all the religions/cults/governments/institutions of today and yesterday, the entire world over, that do some of the most amazingly effd up things, to make my jaw drop you bring me "kids in international waters" That's "child slaves in international waters." Forced to scrape the hulls of rat-infested ships and confined in pitch-dark, coffin-sized holds. But way to downplay that. henchman24 posted: Slavery is a shame anywhere it happens, and it happens in all different forms the world over. "Scientology! At least they're not the only slaveholders!" henchman24 posted: Raising children from a young age to believe that sacrifing there lives in service to there God is equally as cruel, and it happens every day. Baptising a child before they can stand up or speak, let alone make up there own mind, is a more passive form. You may find this absurd, but how many of the worlds conflicts would be non existent if so many weren't raised in these boxes, to me one is infinitely more damaging. Religion's only one way to indoctrinate a child into serving a country's agenda. Mao didn't need it, Stalin didn't need it, and neither did Kim Jong-Il. Besides, I was baptised as a baby, lost interest in my childhood church, and left when I felt like it. No fuss at all. henchman24 posted: The other 2 things are in no way illegal, or cruel, or anything more than excessive. You really don't consider bankrupting people with an avalanche of lawsuits, just for exposing your activities, cruel? You're okay with bankrupting people for bogus lessons and treatments, mindscrewing them all the while into giving more and more? henchman24 posted: Every religion leeches. At least CoS doesn't guilt trip you into thinking GOD wants you to do it, nothing wrong with "pay to play". You don't know what you're talking about. Do your homework here, and find out how the CoS preys on the vulnerable. It's not "pay to play." It's "pay or you'll commit suicide any day now." "Pay or you'll still be broken." "Pay or you'll start backsliding." "Pay or you'll let down your friends and family." "Pay or you'll fail your mission to save the planet." "Pay or we'll banish you in shame and disgrace, loser." "This is all you've got? What the hell's wrong with you? Don't you realize how serious this is? What, you think you can just walk away, you think it's all about you? Do you have any idea what's at stake here? Oh, don't tell me you're still saving for school. You know what they do to people there? Here, read this. And pay up for it; this is not a free ride." And so on. henchman24 posted: We live is a horrible society filled with vultures who will prey on anyone they can, lawsuits are all over for things that offend "PC" minded individuals. Why should the CoS not be a part of this. If you're that jaded, no wonder you're willing to turn a blind eye. Not everyone is equally horrible. Some have enough compassion and fairness not to join the worst of the bunch. henchman24 posted: Of all the crap that is written to defame the CoS, if only 10% of it was false, that would easily justify the number of suits they go through in that span of time. Dude. Any way you slice it, the number of lawsuits the CoS files far outstrips the number filed by any other religion, or group that decided to call itself one. The Catholic Church didn't sue over Dogma or Da Vinci Code, and even when Larry Flynt took Jerry Falwell to task, he only sued him once — not 21 times in half a year. The CoS' volume of lawsuits is hysterical by any standards. henchman24 posted: Again I would like to retsate that these last 2 things are in no way wrong. If you honestly believe that frivolous legal avalanches are perfectly acceptable, and that charging vulnerable people all their money and then some for phony treatments and indoctrination is perfectly acceptable, then what exactly is unacceptable to you? Blackmailing judges? Forcing women into abortions? Take your pick; the list goes on and on. What exactly could they do that you would find unacceptable? henchman24 posted: To the poster above who suggests that a religious institution can't be held resposible for something done in the past, when does that line in the sand occur?? When exactly does the past start? In that sense we can hardly hold the current incarnation of the CoS responsible for the actions of yesterdays CoS =D You can't be held accountable for your parents', grandparents', or far-distant ancestors' actions, but you can be held accountable for your own. That's the line. -----signature----- Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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malkieD2 Title: EuroMod™-JCC - FFUK-RSA Emeritus Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 3/4 5:00am Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology - Date Edited: 3/4 5:02am (1 edits total) Edited By: malkieD2
	Lord_Vivec posted: Someone posts some reasonable arguements, and this is the best rebuttal you have? I haven't posted in some time as my central arguement remains unchallenged. Posts like this from LV just highlight that you conceed my point - you don't have a response. edit Lord_Vivec posted: Name one other religion that uses these tactics and how it uses these tactics. Catholic Church is guilty of every point raised above. We've been through this, with examples previously. -----signature----- HBOF There are only 10 types of people in this world; those who understand binary jokes, and those who don't. If you don't already know, you'll never understand. If you already know, no explanation is needed - KW
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Kimball_Kinnison Registered: Oct '01	Date Posted: 3/4 6:12am Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
	malkieD2 posted: I haven't posted in some time as my central arguement remains unchallenged. Posts like this from LV just highlight that you conceed my point - you don't have a response. No, malkie, it has been thoroughly challenged. You simply reject out of hand anything that contradicts your preselected position. We've already shown that your argument is riddled with logical fallacies. Kimball Kinnison -----signature----- You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Darth Geist Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 3/4 7:56am Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
	No, no, he's right; it's never been challenged. Also, there are no American tanks in Baghdad. -----signature----- Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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malkieD2 Title: EuroMod™-JCC - FFUK-RSA Emeritus Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 3/4 8:11am Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
	No, all you've done is provided significant evidence of the wrong-doings of Scientology. I don't discount that, but at the same time it doesn't do anything to counter my arguement. -----signature----- HBOF There are only 10 types of people in this world; those who understand binary jokes, and those who don't. If you don't already know, you'll never understand. If you already know, no explanation is needed - KW
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Darth Geist Registered: Oct '99	Date Posted: 3/4 8:13am Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology - Date Edited: 3/4 8:15am (1 edits total) Edited By: Darth Geist
	Malkie posted: No, all you've done is provided significant evidence of the wrong-doings of Scientology. While at the same time comparing and contrasting those wrong-doings with those of other religions, and showing where Scientology does worse. And that's the part you're ignoring. We haven't even gotten into Hinduism here. What have they done that's so horrible? What has Judaism done in the last five millenia that might not have been fictional? -----signature----- Do not go gentle into that good night. Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
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Lord_Vivec Registered: Apr '06	Date Posted: 3/4 8:45am Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology
	malkieD2 posted: Lord_Vivec posted: Name one other religion that uses these tactics and how it uses these tactics. Catholic Church is guilty of every point raised above. We've been through this, with examples previously. You really do epic fail, don't you? We have been through this, and we came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church did this a long time ago. Did you get a mindwipe or something? -----signature----- Lord Sithis, Dark Lord of Entropy Senator of the Disciples of Lady Lumiya and Lord Shadowspawn Sith Governor of the Imperial Knights! Resistance is futile! Sinrebirth for Sith Emperor '08 Iron Gauntlet of the Sith
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malkieD2 Title: EuroMod™-JCC - FFUK-RSA Emeritus Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 3/4 8:48am Subject: RE: ~The Internet-vs-Scientology~ The War on Scientology - Date Edited: 3/4 8:50am (1 edits total) Edited By: malkieD2
	I'm not ignoring that you claim they are worse - I'm just pointing out that 'worse' is purely subjective. You could argue that the Catholic Church is 'worse' because it has done things on a bigger scale than Scientology. I personally wouldn't, but my central point remains intact. We haven't even gotten into Hinduism here. What have they done that's so horrible? What has Judaism done in the last five millenia that might not have been fictional? You are completely missing my point. While I might have a personal issue with religion in general, that isn't the point I'm raising here. All I'm saying is that there is nothing you can say about Scientology which doesn't apply to other religions, hence Scientology does not differentiate itself from other religions. If Hinduism and Judaism have never been responsible for an unsavory act then great for them! edit LV - I point out that you are unable to form a counter arguement, to which you reply doing exactly the same thing again. Childish gifs make you look like a fool with no substance or belief in their stance. -----signature----- HBOF There are only 10 types of people in this world; those who understand binary jokes, and those who don't. If you don't already know, you'll never understand. If you already know, no explanation is needed - KW
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