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nancyallen Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 1/24 8:50pm Subject: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	All the time we see criminals who by rights should receive harsh penalties let off or are not given the punishment we believe they deserve. One could even look at the attitude of some who have turned to a life of crime, young thugs who have not a worry in the world about being caught or what the justice system might do to them for example, and see that they have no fear of the law. Might natural justice, the community taking the law into their own hands, be a step towards fighting the problems that dangerous societies face? If not then what might the police, the courts and the community do in order to stem the criminal and violent behavior? Might looking at the lives criminals had lived be of any benefit? Does providing for those who commit the acts they do help? If so, if vigilantism would work, then how far would it go? Nightly patrols by groups of concerned citizens? Warning about dangerous criminals, mail drops informing parents about pedophiles living nearby? Would violence be a viable answer? Would we even contemplate the actions of the Punisher to get our message across? I'll be only too happy to put my thoughts up later but I'd like to hear from all of you first. -----signature----- Even as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for God is with me.
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Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon Registered: Dec '00	Date Posted: 1/24 11:07pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement - Date Edited: 1/25 1:45am (1 edits total) Edited By: Mr44
	Might natural justice, the community taking the law into their own hands, be a step towards fighting the problems that dangerous societies face? There's actually a legal theory that our current system of law is a good path to natural justice, because it creates a moral code based in experience over time while retaining the ability to change with the times, rather than a fixed list of rules set in stone at the start. The American legal system is supposed to already be in the hands of the community. That's why we have trial by juries of peers. Also, you list several examples that are very different from one another. Neighborhood watch and information-spreading about dangerous criminals are not what most people think of as vigilantism. There is a huge difference between lawful (though perhaps paranoid) measures and those who willfully break laws in service of a 'higher' justice than that of American law and law enforcement. I think it would help to narrow your focus and discuss these things separately rather than lumping them all together as 'vigilantism'.
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LostOnHoth Registered: Feb '00	Date Posted: 1/24 11:12pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	My only comment at this stage is a warning not equate the concept of "natural justice" with vigilantism. They are entirely different concepts. Natural justice is more about procedural fairness/due process in legal proceedings as opposed to vigilantism which is about ignoring procedural fairness in legal proceedings, in fact, its about ignoring due process altogether. I'm not actually entirely sure what you are seeking to discuss. -----signature----- Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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GrandAdmiralPelleaon Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/25 2:45am Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	I get the feeling you just saw the Punisher "kick some ass" and had your inner child go "yeah, we should deal with all criminals that way!". Unfortunately mob justice doesn't always pick the right targets and if you really want to adopt the Punisher's methods, let me remind you that you are in fact, not a movie hero and that anybody actually doing what he does would get his ass kicked eventually, and it would not be pretty. -----signature----- Vita vinum est. Freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitude.
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nancyallen Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 1/25 5:00am Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement - Date Edited: 1/25 5:22am (2 edits total) Edited By: nancyallen
	Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted: There's actually a legal theory that our current system of law is a good path to natural justice, because it creates a moral code based in experience over time while retaining the ability to change with the times, rather than a fixed list of rules set in stone at the start. As in us making judgements of right and wrong on our feet as opposed to whining because some written law had been broken? If that's what you're getting at then I like the idea. I'm not sure if it would ever replace our current system or if it'd be any better but if people went at it with a common sense perspective it could work well. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted: Also, you list several examples that are very different from one another. Neighborhood watch and information-spreading about dangerous criminals are not what most people think of as vigilantism. Maybe not, but they are actions taken by people taking the law into their own hands. I'll discuss this a bit more below, but so that we're clear it's a catch all for what civilians might do to combat crime, including actual violent vigilante action. LostOnHoth posted: Natural justice is more about procedural fairness/due process in legal proceedings as opposed to vigilantism which is about ignoring procedural fairness in legal proceedings, in fact, its about ignoring due process altogether. I think that's part of the point and, as scary as the idea might be, part of the appeal. That the red tape tying up established law enforcement is cut through and people are dealt with the way the vigilante himself, the community at large, whatever, believe they should be dealt with. To me that's one of the dangers of having too much regulation, you limit effectiveness, in turn angering people which can and does lead to them taking matters into their own hands. LostOnHoth posted: I'm not actually entirely sure what you are seeking to discuss. Well here's what I wrote up when putting forward substance for the thread. The idea of vigilante action, to me, is not so far removed as something like the insurgents in Iraq fighting against the invading forces. If we are to take matters into our own hands are we not taking a step in that direction? Another thing to consider is how we might act outside the law. If we place ourselves as higher than the police and the laws they enforce then who are going to police us? So what might the police and courts do in order to prevent vigilante action? For the most part the police do the best job they can, with their hands being tied by red tape that is put into place by policy makers. It's reached the point where even if a police officer does have to use force in a life or death situation they are seen as the villain because they harmed or killed a threatening criminal. I say this simply cannot be allowed and action must take place to show that, yes, the police force is a life saving authority and not a life taking one, but there are times where a police officer will have to pull the trigger. Speaking of which it is very much the courts and those who write up laws and guidelines that I place much of the blame on for seemingly lack of police action. Why? Because the sad truth is that some of the criminals by their nature are given special treatment, maybe because of the color of their skin, maybe because of their age as a number of offenders are young, maybe because of a poor homelife. Sometimes it's due to prison overcrowding, or because some element in the judicial system dictates that the criminal is not prosecuted. And sometimes I see it simply being out of touch with how the world works in this day and age, where hoodlums are given free reign because courts honestly believe they are incapeable of the harm that people claim they commit. And part of that would be lawyers, to be fair. So what's the solution to this problem? I think this is a very hard question to answer, so I throw the question out to the forum. One of the things that is done when looking at criminals is the examination of their lives, how they were brought up, why they might do the things they do. I see two reasons for this. One is to try and find ways to counteract the symptoms that bring about a criminal, such as taking action against abuse because the abused become abusers themselves. The other, hidden motive is to find some loophole to present the defendant in court as a special case and not deserving of punishment. But certainly in identifying the causes of people becoming criminals we can look for ways to stop the problem before it becomes one. One of the reasons that is often cited is the need for a criminal. Oftentimes this might be a materialistic need, out of desperation, to feed some addiction to drugs or dependence on alcohol or simply to feed some greed, someone wants something so they use crime to get it. But more commonly people are reasoning that especially for young offenders they commit crimes out of boredom, out of frustration of their lives (linking back to my earlier point) or out of a need for attention or to impress others. Might something the community can do for them: aiding those in need, providing creative outlets for graffiti taggers or autoshop for car thieves who have an interest in motor vehicles, help? Absolutely, and by doing so we can weed out those who can be steered from a life of crime from those who are just plain bad, who have set out to cause misery to others. So what do we do about those who are simply beyond help? Maybe if the ideas I explained were put into place there would be fewer people going through the courts. So what about those who do, or more specifically those who are not there yet, that are still out there acting bad? The police force may or may not have the strength to handle it but let's assume they wouldn't and there is still a call for vigilante action. The question is how exactly to go about it, whether to remain within the law and still be able to do something to fight crime. Neighborhood watch programs are very much in place but those serious about what they do might go out on patrol. How good an idea is it? I would say that if you are going to do it then do it as a large group as for all the bravado some criminals show they are basically cowards and while they might confront one or two people a group of five or six will make them back off. Simply the presence of a team community effort is usually enough to stop crime in it's tracks. Something else that's done as a community is letter box drops warning people about a dangerous criminal, a pedophile for example. It's a common enough occurrence and one frowned upon by the police. My problem with this is given the nature of the crime people might use this information and do something stupid, resort to violence. As understandable as anything done to them might be given the nature of the crime it bears thinking that anything you may do has to be within the realms of the law, and letter box drops might well be against it. Violence is what many people might think in taking up vigilante action, something the law definitely disagrees with. I've happened to see violence and intimidation work in stopping criminals, so how viable an option is it to work outside the law and serve notice to the criminal element in your community? On the one hand I say it's only a crime if you get caught. On the other hand one thing to keep in mind with this, or really any action you might take is any retaliation you might face. Criminals by their nature don't want to be exposed, they don't want to be caught, as much as they might not fear the law they know there's the possibility it will catch up to them and come down hard on them, so most will do anything in their power to stop that from happening, and if you are dealing with a gang or dealer or some heavy hitter then the consequences would be severe, short of killing them. And that is an unrealistic option, not only would the law be after you if the criminal in your mind warrents killing then their associates will most likely come after you, and that is something you don't want to happen. Even going after small time kids can have the same consequences. GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted: I get the feeling you just saw the Punisher "kick some ass" and had your inner child go "yeah, we should deal with all criminals that way!". That's very much the case. As brutal as it is I think the world would be a better place if he were real, the same as others think the same for Spiderman, Captain Planet, whoever. Still read the Slavers storyarc and tell me you wouldn't feel the same, I can send it to you if you like, or the important bits anyway. GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted: Unfortunately mob justice doesn't always pick the right targets and if you really want to adopt the Punisher's methods, let me remind you that you are in fact, not a movie hero and that anybody actually doing what he does would get his ass kicked eventually, and it would not be pretty. I covered that a bit above but I'll go into more detail here. I would love for there to be a real life Frank Castle, intimidating criminals out of a life of crime with his brutal tactics. I think we would be better off. With that said however it's unrealistic. Am I a movie hero? Of course not. What they do in movies, honestly, is *******. You might think some people can get away with it because they had military training, but that's not the way it works. Would I ever do something like that? Thankfully I can say that I have not been placed in a position where that would be likely, and even if I were I have my doubts about whether or not it would be as automatic as they make it out in fiction. I say thankfully to not having the opportunity to employ vigilantism because the consequences you pointed out, let me be blunt, you remember those Nigerian scams? The people behind them kill those who try and bust it open. Feel like becoming a cyber cowboy and hunting down those who trade in child porn? I want you and anyone else thinking about the idea to listen carefully to what I'm going to say here: FORGET IT.* If they find you, and believe me it's easy to do, they'll rape and kill you and then rape and kill your family and friends. Melodramatic? Maybe. The point I'm making here is that law enforcement put their asses on the line so you don't have to. As much as I would like for there to be a real life Punisher I don't want anyone to have that sort of a life. In fact the comics themselves make a statement against what he does. Hmmm, apologies if my comments put off any discussion on what pros there might be to this particular course of action, but Pelleaon very much expressed a point I felt needed to be covered in the strongest possible terms. -----signature----- Even as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for God is with me.
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GrandAdmiralPelleaon Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 1/25 11:23am Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	To be honest, I think you have a very simplistic view about crime in general. Would I like to see slavers punished .. yes, but do I want "police" to have their hands free? Hell no, you might trust your average cop, and with reason, but I sure as hell don't want any of them to think that they can get away with anything. Even the good guys, that sort of power corrupts. There is evidence enough in history of how that ends up. Hell, go on and read some stories that come out of some South American countries where, I swear to you, the police is almost as bad as the criminals themselves. If you want to read some stuff that actually happens, read What is the What by Dave Eggers. I don't need to be told about some fictional slaver to know what sort of people are out there. I have friends who were involved in crime, they did bad things , were they at heart bad people? No, they weren't. You stoop to the level of criminals when you take action yourself in that way. I know that there is a strong sense of moral outrage in you, and that you wish these people would feel the pain they cause, but you do not have the authority to start inflicting it yourself. -----signature----- Vita vinum est. Freedom is a road seldom traveled by the multitude.
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DarthKarde Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 1/25 2:24pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	I think that almost everybody sees the appeal of vigilantism on a basic level but the reality is that it is absolutely incompatable with liberty and the rule of law. -----signature----- The UK Independance Party - http://www.ukip.org The Freedom Association - http://www.tfa.net Better Off Out - http://www.betteroffout.co.uk Say NO2ID and the database state - http://www.no2id.net/
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nancyallen Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 1/25 6:41pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted: To be honest, I think you have a very simplistic view about crime in general. Now this I see thrown about all the time but I don't get it. What's wrong with taking a simplistic view on things. GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted: ould I like to see slavers punished .. yes, but do I want "police" to have their hands free? Hell no, you might trust your average cop, and with reason, but I sure as hell don't want any of them to think that they can get away with anything. No we don't want to see that sort of thing, of course not. What I'm saying is, restraint orders, classic example. All the time the police have to sit there and say they cannot do anything for people under threat until a law's broken, or they cannot help at all with protection, or legal satures that will protect someone. They actually can but the red tape ties their hands from being able to. GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted: Even the good guys, that sort of power corrupts. There is evidence enough in history of how that ends up. Yes I think power corrupts is a dead and exhumed horse but you're right, not just on individual law enforcement officers but on the system as a whole. Like crime fudging, the practice of ignoring minor crimes or covering up numbers on minor crimes to make things look good. Or the myth about quotas for speeding fines that have to be met. GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted: Hell, go on and read some stories that come out of some South American countries where, I swear to you, the police is almost as bad as the criminals themselves. You don't have to tell me, I know. Anyone want to wager the Nigerian government and law enforcement are in on the advance fee scams you get in your inbox? GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted: I have friends who were involved in crime, they did bad things , were they at heart bad people? No, they weren't. Which is why it's important to see why they commit crimes, whether or not they are at heart bad people. Your friends mightn't be but there would be those who are, those who are deserving of...punishment. GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted: You stoop to the level of criminals when you take action yourself in that way. Could you elaborate? GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted: I know that there is a strong sense of moral outrage in you, and that you wish these people would feel the pain they cause, but you do not have the authority to start inflicting it yourself. And criminals have the moral authority to maim, rape, pillage, slaughter and burn? I'm not so sure if it's a moral outrage I feel, more a yearning for there to be some solution. Might vigilante action be it? What might the advantages of it be over trying to curb criminal behavior so the police force is strengthened enough to deal with hardcore cases? DarthKarde posted: I think that almost everybody sees the appeal of vigilantism on a basic level but the reality is that it is absolutely incompatable with liberty and the rule of law. I think most people are willing to overlook that in exchange to doing something about the people hurting them. For me much of the downside is the type of life a vigilante might live. That and the fear reprisal. As much as I would like for someone to be able to pull it off it's not a life anyone should live. -----signature----- Even as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for God is with me.
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Steven_R Registered: Feb '08	Date Posted: 2/3 3:57pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	Which definition of vigilantism are we using? The popular lynch mob one, or the one with concerned citizens are simply taking up some of the slack for law enforcement (e.g. neighborhood watches, the Minuteman Project)? -----signature----- Rise O voices of Rhodesia, God may we they bounty share, Give us strength to face all danger, And where challenge is, to dare.
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Process Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 2/3 4:48pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	nancyallen posted: All the time we see criminals who by rights should receive harsh penalties let off or are not given the punishment we believe they deserve. One could even look at the attitude of some who have turned to a life of crime, young thugs who have not a worry in the world about being caught or what the justice system might do to them for example, and see that they have no fear of the law. Might natural justice, the community taking the law into their own hands, be a step towards fighting the problems that dangerous societies face? If not then what might the police, the courts and the community do in order to stem the criminal and violent behavior? Might looking at the lives criminals had lived be of any benefit? Does providing for those who commit the acts they do help? If so, if vigilantism would work, then how far would it go? Nightly patrols by groups of concerned citizens? Warning about dangerous criminals, mail drops informing parents about pedophiles living nearby? Would violence be a viable answer? Would we even contemplate the actions of the Punisher to get our message across? I'll be only too happy to put my thoughts up later but I'd like to hear from all of you first. This is a very touchy subject. As you already know, vigilantism is prohibited by the law. I don't know if this is because the police know of the dangers of trusting a civilian with enforcing the law, or if they are just plain jealous of other people doing their job for them. Some people might argue that civilians could be biased and being a 'Vigilante' could just be a way of covering up following out on their predjudice and racism. But who can tell if a police officer is not biased? Sure, we would all like to think this but it is simply not true. IMO, it is better to leave the work to the police. A way that civilians can help is being pro-active in law enforcement without violence. Reporting crime to hotlines etc.
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Steven_R Registered: Feb '08	Date Posted: 2/3 5:07pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	And when law enforcement doesn't actually enforce the law? -----signature----- Rise O voices of Rhodesia, God may we they bounty share, Give us strength to face all danger, And where challenge is, to dare.
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Process Registered: Jan '08	Date Posted: 2/3 5:28pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	Steven_R posted: And when law enforcement doesn't actually enforce the law? When I actually see that happening, i'll be able to comment on it better.
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Steven_R Registered: Feb '08	Date Posted: 2/3 5:41pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	Immigration, for example. The stories are legion of local law enforcement contacting the feds about illegal aliens and the feds doing nothing about it. Even when the cops have a known illegal alien, the alien gets cut loose because the feds just won't take custody. Now, if the local and state law enforcement is incapable of enforcing federal law, and the feds don't seem real interested in enforcing it, then what? -----signature----- Rise O voices of Rhodesia, God may we they bounty share, Give us strength to face all danger, And where challenge is, to dare.
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Master_SweetPea Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 2/3 7:02pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	From Wikipedia A vigilante is a person who ignores due process of law and enacts his/her own form of justice when they deem the response of the authorities to be insufficient From Googling "Define: Vigilante" self-appointed doer of justice member of a vigilance committee From The Free Dictionary By Farlex searching for Vigilante n. 1. One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands. 2. A member of a vigilance committee. From Allwords.com searching for Vigilante noun 1. One who takes the law into one's own hands to be clear when I think Vigilante, or Vigilantism, I think of TMNT's Casey Jones, some crazy guy I once saw on the news who burned down a crack house, or Mavel comic's Punisher. Personally I think the Neighborhood watch groups, the Minutemen, and "shooting back" are common sense solutions of self preservation, NOT vigilantism. So having stated my terms, I think Vigilantism creates more problems, and solves none. Taking care of yourself is YOUR job, beyond that, leave it to the professionals. -----signature----- I don't like the donkeys and I don't like the Elephants http://www.lp.org "Some people never have anything except ideas Go Do it! Lucky Numbers 3, 11, 21, 31, 41, 43"
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king_alvarez Registered: May '07	Date Posted: 2/4 7:03am Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	nancyallen posted: What's wrong with taking a simplistic view on things. Because the simplistic view is often times akin to making sweeping generalizations about people. nancyallen posted: No we don't want to see that sort of thing, of course not. What I'm saying is, restraint orders, classic example. All the time the police have to sit there and say they cannot do anything for people under threat until a law's broken, or they cannot help at all with protection, or legal satures that will protect someone. They actually can but the red tape ties their hands from being able to. So what solution would you suggest? Arrest people for a crime that has not been committed based on one person's word against another's? nancyallen posted: Which is why it's important to see why they commit crimes, whether or not they are at heart bad people. Your friends mightn't be but there would be those who are, those who are deserving of...punishment.Um, how do you propose we determine if someone is at heart a bad person? What does that even mean to be bad at heart, or should we just take your word for it that someone is bad at heart? nancyallen posted: [quote=GrandAdmiralPelleaon]You stoop to the level of criminals when you take action yourself in that way. Could you elaborate? Criminals break the rules, and vigilantes break the rules. The scales are different, but the philosophy is the same. nancyallen posted: GrandAdmiralPelleaon posted: I know that there is a strong sense of moral outrage in you, and that you wish these people would feel the pain they cause, but you do not have the authority to start inflicting it yourself. And criminals have the moral authority to maim, rape, pillage, slaughter and burn? I'm assuming that you didn't really intend to make it sound like you're justifying murder and rape just because other people can get away with it. nancyallen posted: [quote=DarthKarde]I think that almost everybody sees the appeal of vigilantism on a basic level but the reality is that it is absolutely incompatable with liberty and the rule of law. I think most people are willing to overlook that in exchange to doing something about the people hurting them.[quote]As was mentioned, self-defense is a completely different animal than vigilantism. I think most people yearn for justice, but I don't think most people feel that justice should be determined and acted upon individually. nancyallen posted: As much as I would like for someone to be able to pull it off it's not a life anyone should live. Do you think this vigilante would have morals and beliefs about enforcement that completely match your own? Do you think those beliefs will completely match those of everyone else? What happens when those beliefs differ? How would this vigilante determine if someone should be punished? -----signature----- Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?" Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 2/4 12:53pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	The minutemen, neighborhood watches, etc., are not vigilantism. They act in concert with existing law enforcement agencies. They're more like supporting actors. Vigilantism will likely grow though as our society becomes more fragmented, more authoritiarian, and less free. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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