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Author	Topic: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
Mr44 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 2/19 3:39pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	Everything looks fine to me so far. I'd just offer the general reminder for everyone to stay focused on the topic, and not get too hung up on the personal motivations of the people posting. -----signature----- Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability. .............................................................. Peter Shoomaker
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Lowbacca_1977 Title: Senate Moderator Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 2/19 4:39pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	For the sake of flow and focus, it may help to cut down on the line by line dissections of posts (drawing a distinction between highlighting a line or two for specific points versus going though many or most of the lines of the post) although I'm just suggesting that as something that may help readability and the like from someone trying to follow this thread, not from a modly perspective that that should therefore be a rule.
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Mr44 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 2/19 4:49pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	Yeah, I agree with that as well. -----signature----- Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability. .............................................................. Peter Shoomaker
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nancyallen Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 2/21 3:16pm Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	Yes, that's something that if you look is a bit of a negative. I cannot speak for others but it's a bad habit I picked up from other forums. A little research reveals that the act of picking apart a post in this way is frowned upon by some, as by actively searching for things to pick on it's considered particularly disrespectful. Now, there's dispute over the need to dehumanize somewhat. Let's talk about that. Why is it necessary to dehumanize human emotions and human perspectives? The short answer is very much that you must be able to take the hits, you must be emotionally tough, which requires a certain degree of being able to not allow things to hit home, to dehumanize things. Because if you cannot take the hits you lose the heart, you lose the heart to work because of what you might encounter at work, you lose the heart to watch television because of the tragedies you see on it, you can't do any of that because it sends you into a crying fit. The very fact that these things don't is because people are able to weather what they see, they are able to become emotionally detached, dehumanize things. That's why on a very basic level it's necessary. Soldiers absolutely have to view things in a dehumanized and detached way because of the natural reluctance to kill, I know people are going to be very upset about this but a soldier's job is to kill, and if they freeze up out there and they cannot do their job, then they will be killed, some mother will lose a son, some father won't go home to his family. Same goes for police, in a life or death situation they cannot be thinking that they are going to kill someone, they cannot have the doubts they would have after a shooting beforehand because if they do their lives are at risk and most likely the lives of others will be at risk as well. Or how about a fatal accident, police cannot break down and cry over it...actually I might just pause there for a moment and say that people who do react this way, it's perfectly normal. I remember vividly one police officer breaking down at the Port Arthur massacre, where that gunmen killed thirty odd people in Australia. No way am I saying that it's wrong for people to act this way, but going back to the fatal, police can't be crying everywhere over the loss of someone so young, they can't see the body thrown through the windshield and be throwing up everywhere, they have a job to do and have to be able to switch off, dehumanize things, and get on with it. Or how about the coroner? Imagine having to cut open dead bodies for forensic analysis. Cutting open liver to be weighed, picking apart skull and brain to search for trauma. You'd find a lot more trauma from anyone who has to experience that, unless they are able to become detatched, dehumanized. And then of course when it comes to dealing with the dead we have the morticians, the undertakers, the priest, the gravediggers, all those who are involved in the funeral arrangements. The family's natural grief over the deceased is certainly understandable and warranted, and as much as they need to go on they wouldn't be able to at the time. But those whose job is to deal with this sort of thing have to be emotionally tough enough, dehumanized enough, to deal with this very emotionally harrowing and difficult event. Ditto for counselors, psychiatrists, those who try and held people through not just a loved one dying but all manner of things. These people perhaps more so than anyone else cannot afford to take on board people's issues, they cannot allow things to be taken to heart, because by not dehumanizing things to a degree they would be destroyed, crushed under the weight of the problems they encounter day in and day out. -----signature----- Even as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for God is with me.
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king_alvarez Registered: May '07	Date Posted: 2/22 7:02am Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	nancyallen posted: A little research reveals that the act of picking apart a post in this way is frowned upon by some, as by actively searching for things to pick on it's considered particularly disrespectful. To prevent any misunderstanding, I should clarify that it was never my intent to merely search for things to pick on. My perspective is that if the supporting arguments are flawed or invalid, the conconclusion, therefore, also is flawed or invalid. I was merely trying to point out why I thought the supporting arguments were not valid. In any case, I do appreciate the need for readability. . . . Regarding dehumanization, I think we may be using slightly different definitions. My usage is probably best summarized by the Wikipedia reference. "Dehumanization is a process by which members of a group of people assert the "inferiority" of another group through subtle or overt acts or statements." I do understand the need to somewhat distance oneself from powerful emotions in order to deal with certain situations in a completely rational manner. I view that as being different than dehumanization. I do feel, though, that even in those situations where you may need to distance yourself from an emotional reaction, it is still important to not view the subject as inferior or less than human. I feel it is especially important for soldiers, police officers, judges, and military commanders to always see the subject as human so that they can understand and feel fully the weight of their life and death decisions. I don't think anyone should ever feel comfortable making a decision that will result in a death. I think this helps them to view any action that results in death as a reluctant last resort rather than an instinctive action. And it also helps to prevent some of the many types of atrocities that have taken place in our history. I think of the massive rape of the German women by the Red Army. This wouldn't have happened if the soldiers viewed the German women on equal footing as their own wives and sisters. As I mentioned, I think part of our disagreement is because of the definitions we are using. Beyond that, I think our differences are stemming from our views of humanity and the different values we place on life. I doubt that at this point there is much either of us can do to change the other's opinion. -----signature----- Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?" Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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nancyallen Registered: Nov '07	Date Posted: 2/25 5:04am Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	With doing something like, say, dehumanizing the enemy in war for example, I'll say this: that is I think part of the reason atrocities are committed in war. The construction and use of nuclear weapons, the push for a preemptive attack on Moscow, the tribal savagery in Vietnam and September 11 and conflict against the Jewish state would all be examples of where the enemy is considered vermin. One might argue some of the acts that are committed, Vietnam might be the best example, as well as Hiroshima, were acts of survival. From my point of view I would want to be shown exactly what some of these atrocities had accomplished. What had Abu Ghraib done except provide reasoning for the kidnapping and execution of Nick Berg and Margaret Hassan? Now you debate that dehumanization full stop is something we should not allow, not even being hardened against difficult situations. Listen, have you ever thought about the logic behind Marine training on Paris Island, portrayed in films such as Full Metal Jacket? How about the infamous Hell Week where Navy SEALS endure a week of sleepless torture? The reason why the training is this bad, this intense, as well as to sort out the men from the boys and give an idea to what it's really like and how bad it can be, is to toughen the soldiers up so that what they would face if they were ever called to fight they wouldn't be overcome with the horror of war, they wouldn't break down and be unable to do their job even when they come across their third or forth or fifth massacred village. In a very real sense they sacrifice their humanity so that others don't have to sacrifice their lives. This is an extreme example of course but even in everyday life it's something that we do, even if it's a subconscious reaction. For example people don't give all their money to every charity who comes begging for it, they might like to but they don't simply because they can't. The same as people don't act the way they did on September 11 over every tragic news story. Part of that is admittedly down to human ignorance, nothing had been as big as that. Nothing had hit home like that had, I hope not anyway. Because for the most part it doesn't affect them they don't bother with it. Cold? Yeah, but pick up the phone book and see how many people named Atlas you can find, anyone who tries and burden themselves with the weight of the world on their shoulders will be crushed by it. So how do people get by? Out of necessity they ignore as much as they can, as bad as that might sound. In fact speaking purely from my own personal experience the more you try and take on the worse off you are. Job, marriage, kids, finances, rushing off to save the world by aiding sick children in Africa, something had gotta give. -----signature----- Even as I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I will fear no evil, for God is with me.
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king_alvarez Registered: May '07	Date Posted: 2/25 6:43am Subject: RE: Vigilantism and it's effect on law enforcement
	nancyallen posted: This is an extreme example of course but even in everyday life it's something that we do, even if it's a subconscious reaction....So how do people get by? Out of necessity they ignore as much as they can, as bad as that might sound. In fact speaking purely from my own personal experience the more you try and take on the worse off you are. Job, marriage, kids, finances, rushing off to save the world by aiding sick children in Africa, something had gotta give. I already explained that I don't view these types of things as dehumanization. I view a person's ability to control and even distance oneself from powerful emotions as being very different from dehumanization. -----signature----- Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?" Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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