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Topic:
Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
2/5 7:27am
Subject:
Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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In the election thread I posted a NYT editorial by Stanley Fish about irrational (and rational) hatred of Hillary Clinton.
The main thesis:
The hostile characterizations of Clinton do not add up to a coherent account of her hatefulness. She is vilified for being a feminist and for not being one, for being an extreme leftist and for being a "warmongering hawk," for being godless and for being "frighteningly fundamentalist," for being the victim of her husband's peccadilloes and for enabling them. She is an empty vessel into which her detractors can pour everything they detest. In this she is the counterpart of George W. Bush, who serves much the same function for many liberals.
Hillary hating, Fish argues, is like anti-semitism in that "they both feed on air and flourish independently of anything external to their obsessions. Anti-Semitism doesn’t need Jews and anti-Hillaryism doesn’t need Hillary, except as a figment of its collective imagination."
DeathStar1977 posted:
I would be interested to discuss the parallel in terms of dislike between George W. Bush and Hillary.
So, what do you think? Is there so much irrational vilification of both Hillary and George that it overwhelms rational critique of their policies and political records?
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DeathStar1977
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
2/5 9:07am
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
- Date Edited:
2/5 9:08am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DeathStar1977
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I am leaving to go vote here in Cali, so my first response will be brief.
IMO the dislike of Hillary is part personality part the fact that some feel she was (or tried to be) a co-President, a position she was never elected for.
The dislike of Bush is similar, part personality, and part the notion that he road someone else's coattails to where he is today. That, and the lingering feelings over a controversial election, as well as 9/11 and what some/many feel was political abuse of a national tragedy.
Granted there is a lot more to it than that, but that would be a starting point. Its like when you have a bad roommate or friend who no matter what they do, right or wrong, it irritates you.
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ObiWan506
Title: JC Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
2/5 9:14am
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
- Date Edited:
2/5 9:16am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ObiWan506
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I said this in a JCC thread, but the similarities are easy. Both use half truths with the intention of deception. Bush with the obvious and Clinton with her campaign. If you ask her, she'll tell you she's won six states so far and she's enjoying the victory. The average American isn't educated enough to discern the actual truth and they end up following. The blind leading the blind. An educated American is frustrated and disheartened at the gullibility of some people with these despicable tactics.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
2/5 9:44am
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
- Date Edited:
2/5 9:45am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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My concern is, given the reality of the response to Hillary and the parallels with attitudes about Bush, even if Hillary is "electable," does it make sense to put a person in power for 4 or 8 years who provokes the same kind of rabid emotional response on a personal level that George Bush now experiences?
The thing about Obama, McCain, Romney: they are not easy targets for personal frothing-at-the-mouth hatred, the way both Bush and Hillary are.
i know this is different from the question of whether Clinton and/or Bush have "earned" the hatred aimed at them. I'm just saying, given the world as it is, do democrats want to support a candidate who invites the same level of personal hatred that is aimed at Bush?
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DeathStar1977
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
2/5 10:50am
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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Both use half truths with the intention of deception.
Very, very well put.
Jabba
I think Romney could bring about a similar disdain. As I stated in the election thread, I’ve never seen fellow candidates dislike someone so much. And these are people within his own party.
But what you say about Hillary does pose an interesting problem. Personally, that is a main reason I (and a lot of people IMO) are voting for Obama, because he represents a clean break from the past.
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Sauntaero
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
2/5 10:52am
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
- Date Edited:
2/5 10:56am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Sauntaero
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That's a very good point, Jabba. I certainly hope it won't be the case.
Going by DS's personality vs. policy standard, I would say that almost all of my problems with President Bush arise over his policy. A little because of the guy-next-door-down-home-accent gets on my nerves, but his admin makes me wonder how he hasn't been thrown out of office yet.
On the other hand, a lot of Hilary's criticism might be against her harsh personality--I like the word 'grating' to describe her. But then, the reason my mother can't stand her is simply because she stayed with Bill over the whole Lewinsky mess. She otherwise really approved of her, a strong no-nonsense woman, even with the health care thing.
I think she resembles Bush in that she's old, established power, in the race to play the game the same old way, and that's why I hope Obama gets the nomination.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
2/5 11:27am
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
- Date Edited:
2/5 11:30am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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Obviously, the die may already be cast in terms of who gets the nomination, but a Clinton presidency virtually guarantees at least 4 more years of the same kind of bitter partisanship that led to the effort to impeach Bill, led to so many people feeling marginalized by the Bush administration, has led to all the ineffectual grandstanding about what to do next in Iraq.
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DeathStar1977
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
2/5 11:46am
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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But then, the reason my mother can't stand her is simply because she stayed with Bill over the whole Lewinsky mess. She otherwise really approved of her, a strong no-nonsense woman, even with the health care thing.
Interesting. My mother has the same opinion. My experience is that younger women like Hillary, older women do not for the aforementioned reason.
Jabba
You summed up the problems with Bush, and a potential Clinton presidency, quite well.
Again, I think that is why there is a hesitancy from many Democrats to support her, that the whole Bush-Clinton dynamic needs to pass on into history and a new era needs to begin.
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
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Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
2/5 2:03pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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Older women is one of Clinton's strongest constituencies.
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
2/5 2:51pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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Jabbadabbado posted:
The hostile characterizations of Clinton do not add up to a coherent account of her hatefulness. She is vilified for being a feminist and for not being one, for being an extreme leftist and for being a "warmongering hawk," for being godless and for being "frighteningly fundamentalist," for being the victim of her husband's peccadilloes and for enabling them. She is an empty vessel into which her detractors can pour everything they detest. In this she is the counterpart of George W. Bush, who serves much the same function for many liberals.
I disagree with this assertion. I have never heard contradictory or conflicting criticisms or decries WRT Bush; as far as I have seen they have been consistent, well-documented, and (IMO) not only rational, but well-deserved. So I find it hard to compare Bush with Clinton as I don't see them being at all the same in this sense.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
2/5 2:55pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
- Date Edited:
2/5 2:59pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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I dunno. I've seen Bush criticized as shrewd and opportunistic on the one hand, and a dim-witted idealogue whose presidency is run by Dick Cheney on the other hand. He's criticized for having a management style that's too "hands off" and for micromanaging the justice department. etc. He's criticized for being too hard and too soft on North Korea.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
2/5 3:05pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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WRT Bush; as far as I have seen they have been consistent, well-documented, and (IMO) not only rational, but well-deserved. So I find it hard to compare Bush with Clinton as I don't see them being at all the same in this sense.
Sure, from your point of view. But the topic is broader than if you don't like Bush, you think the criticism is valid, but if you like Clinton, you think it's unwarranted.
The issue is even if it's deserved or not, would such a wide-spread negative reaction paralyze another administration?
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
2/5 3:15pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
- Date Edited:
2/5 3:21pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
DorkmanScott
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Mr44 posted:
WRT Bush; as far as I have seen they have been consistent, well-documented, and (IMO) not only rational, but well-deserved. So I find it hard to compare Bush with Clinton as I don't see them being at all the same in this sense.
Sure, from your point of view. But the topic is broader than if you don't like Bush, you think the criticism is valid, but if you like Clinton, you think it's unwarranted.
That's not what I was saying at all. Frankly, I have little opinion on Clinton either way. My only point was that the OP asserted that both of them had were the subject of criticisms that were self-contradictory and (as the title goes) irrational, which I had not observed to be the case. My observations were that criticisms of Bush were both constant and consistent, perfectly rational based on his actions over the last 8 years, and hardly in the league of "godless/fundamentalist". He then made some examples that clarified his argument. I still hardly think they're in the same league, but at least I see the point better.
Mr44 posted:
The issue is even if it's deserved or not, would such a wide-spread negative reaction paralyze another administration?
Well, that's a different question. If the negative reaction is self-contradictory as proposed above, then yes, I think it would paralyze the administration, as it would be impossible to do the "right" thing if your detractors have cornered the market and made either option "wrong".
If the negative reaction is consistent, however, the administration can take a long hard look at what it's doing wrong and make any necessary adjustments. But if an administration is going to go flagrantly against the wishes of the democracy it is meant to serve, perhaps it's for the best that it be "paralyzed."
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
2/5 3:25pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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There are 2 related Hillary issues in my view:
1) electability and
2) the divisiveness of a hillary presidency
Re, electability:
From the original GQ article:
But the “bitchy quality” and “look at those eyes” type of discourse will likely not stay on the fringes for long. In the Republican primary, she has hovered like a specter over every debate, with candidates intoning her name like an incantation to wake the slumbering Republican base. (Republican candidates and debate moderators uttered her name forty-three times over the course of the October 21 contest in Orlando.)
Without a consensus-building Republican candidate to energize the party in 2008, the down-with-Hillary battle cry appears to be the best they have. The frothing and stomping of the haters tills the GOP landscape for mainstream institutions like the Republican National Committee, which has already sent out scores of e-mails to reporters skewering Hillary with hater-lite headings like “Hillary Hypocrisy” and “4 More Years of Clinton?” which asserts, “The Clintons haven’t changed one bit since the 1990s
I know this is a horrible argument from the point of view of election politics, since I'm suggesting that the democratic party should "give in to the hate," but I don't see a realistic alternative.
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chibiangi
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
2/5 5:19pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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I am old enough to remember when Hilary was being snarked on in the media for not baking cookies like Mrs. Bush and talking smarty talk like some uppitty woman before Clinton even had the nomination. The disdain for Hilary goes back to her not following the Jackie Kennedy mould of soft and supportive housewife.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
2/5 5:49pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
- Date Edited:
2/5 6:39pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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Arguably, cookiegate is what started it all:
I suppose I could have stayed home and baked cookies and had teas, but what I decided to do was fulfill my profession.
Re, hatred of George Bush, don't get me wrong. The decision to invade Iraq alone constitutes ample grounds in my view for branding George Bush an O.J. Simpson-grade pariah. The kind who gets snubbed at social events and denied membership at his country club of choice.
But by that token Hillary and her unapologized-for Iraq vote deserves a fair share of that open scorn.
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