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Topic:
Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
2/23 9:47pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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Jabbadabbado posted:
But, and this is yet another label to hang on Hillary, she lacked political courage at a crucial moment in American history.
Yep. You could say the same thing about Kerry, too.
I think what they feared was the possibility of a "flowers and parades" outcome in Iraq if they voted against it. You can spin your way out of supporting a war that doesn't go as well as planned, but if you throw in your lot with antiwar forces against a popular American president in the wake of 9/11, and he goes on to be greeted like a hero by millions of Iraqis after a short and mostly bloodless campaign... you're done.
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chibiangi
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
2/24 10:17am
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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Uhm, there is also the thing that we were lied to about WMD. At the time, the public backed the war. Senators are elected to represent. If a Senator says screw you to their constituency, what does it say about the Senator? I would have voted for war in 2003. I sure as hell am not going to hold it against those who did. This is part of the reason why I think Obama going on about not supporting it is one of those "hindsight is 20/20" situations. It is easy to say that when you weren't in the position to vote and had a constituency that backed the war.
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Jedi Ben
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
2/24 1:39pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
The Co-president issue, and the other roles she tried to play simply because she was married to the president, is also my mom's biggest criticism of Hillary Clinton.
Which makes her emphasis that she'd be in charge of the Presidency quite ironic really.
The real killer for me, as an outside observer here, is the much-debated 'show of emotion' - what emotion? After seeing the film, my wife and I found ourselves in agreement with Jon Stewart: That was it? That and the apparent effect wrecked any chance of my viewing her positively, if she's going to that blatantly manipulative...
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
2/24 7:37pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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chibiangi posted:
Senators are elected to represent. If a Senator says screw you to their constituency, what does it say about the Senator?
That they're doing their job?
As Edmund Burke once said:Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion. Kimball Kinnison
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Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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chibiangi
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
2/24 8:26pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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The whole point of representative democracy is that your representative officials act on your behalf, not do whatever they want because they want to. Of course, that's a good way to not get elected again but whatever...
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
2/24 8:58pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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chibiangi posted:
The whole point of representative democracy is that your representative officials act on your behalf, not do whatever they want because they want to. Of course, that's a good way to not get elected again but whatever...
And the point of a democratic republic is that you are electing people that you trust to use their best judgment.
I highly recommend that you read all of Burke's famous speech to Parliament in 1774. He almost perfectly explains the job of a Representative in a democratic republic.
Kimball Kinnison
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You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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chibiangi
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
2/24 9:31pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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Kimball_Kinnison posted:
chibiangi posted:
The whole point of representative democracy is that your representative officials act on your behalf, not do whatever they want because they want to. Of course, that's a good way to not get elected again but whatever...
And the point of a democratic republic is that you are electing people that you trust to use their best judgment.
I highly recommend that you read all of Burke's famous speech to Parliament in 1774. He almost perfectly explains the job of a Representative in a democratic republic.
Kimball Kinnison
I find your post condescending, so I am exiting this discussion.
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
2/24 9:32pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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Completely agreed with KK. This isn't a democracy, for better or worse. This is a republic, and it's wise to remember that.
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
2/24 9:38pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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I agree, too. It's up to every representative how exactly to balance the demands of his or her constituents with the dictates of conscience and judgment, but ultimately, it is the job of elected representatives to take unpopular stands for what they believe to be right and/or necessary. It's called leadership.
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"You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat."
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
2/24 10:17pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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And Sandra Day O'Connor had an interesting article in today's newspaper magazine. While it doesn't relate exactly to elected officials- she discusses her concerns over a political judiciary, which is something we've debated around the forum as well.
In my work as a Supreme Court justice, I was required by the Constitution to fairly and impartially apply the law—not the law as I wanted it to be but the law as it was. Now, as a private citizen, I am anxious about the state of the judiciary in America.
I am not concerned about particular judges or cases, nor am I concerned about the judiciary shifting right or left. What worries me is the manner in which politically motivated interest groups are attempting to interfere with justice....our judicial system has safeguards to ensure consistency and preservation of the law. But it is threatened when judges ignore settled law and make decisions according to personal or public preferences.
I believe the long-term solution to the politicization of the judiciary process is education. Children, voters, policymakers and lawyers all should be informed about the importance of a fair, impartial judiciary. Judges should write their opinions in plain English so that the public can understand what the law is....
I think O'Connor's words relate to our prior discussion, where people where pointing out that they would ignore all other issues with a candidate, if it meant that candidate would "pack the court" with like-minded justices.
She does raise other points, but from what I can tell, it's a subscriber feature right now. It should come up as an archived feature in a couple of days.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
2/25 5:44am
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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KnightWriter posted:
Completely agreed with KK. This isn't a democracy, for better or worse. This is a republic, and it's wise to remember that.
dizfactor posted:
I agree, too. It's up to every representative how exactly to balance the demands of his or her constituents with the dictates of conscience and judgment, but ultimately, it is the job of elected representatives to take unpopular stands for what they believe to be right and/or necessary. It's called leadership.
Hold on a moment.
KW, diz, and I all agree on something? Someone check outside for porcine aerobatics! Get me the weather forecast for Hades! Someone go buy a lottery ticket!
I'll be in my bomb shelter. Let me know after the world ends so I can come out.
Kimball Kinnison
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You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
2/25 11:08am
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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If anyone is interested, here's O'Connor's full opinion piece that I quoted from above:
HERE
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henchman24
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
3/2 9:07pm
Subject:
RE: Irrational Hatred of Hillary Clinton and George Bush
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Steven_R posted:
My first criticism of her had nothing to do with her not baking cookies. It had to do with her talking about Co-President and to her being appointed to the head of the Clinton Health Care Plan, a non-elected and closed door committee that would have taken 1/7th of the American economy under government control. Throw in Whitewater, cattle futures, that Hillary had a hand in firign WH Travel Office employees in May 1993 (Travelgate) and stuff that came out down the road about her, and I think I'm okay with her not baking cookies as a reason for my contempt for this woman.
Bill didn't give her control of that because she was his wife, or because shes bossy, its because she has a sound political mind, and the competence to keep said comittee in check. Your contempt clouds your opinion to the point of one sidedness.
Cheaney had never been elected for anything before serving as Fords Chief of Staff, but has been is seats of major influence since the Nixon administration, the same is true of Rumsfeld, he has been elected to the House in the past, but has served in appointed positions sine Nixon as well. You don't seem disturbed by this for some reason, though I can't imagine why =P
People who put the work in and help win major campaigns get positions of major influence, thats how it works. Reference the White House chief of staff(as noted above), an unelected official with all the access that the president has, and who gets this job, sometimes its scary.
I understand that Karl Rove helped Bush win 2 hard fought campaigns, but does that qualify him to be the deputy Chief of Staff? Hillary may be Bills wife, but try not to lessen her value in his campaign victories, or the fact that she deserved a position at least as much as Karl Rove. With the scandals all 3 of these gentlemaen have been implicated in, its tough to say Hillary was a poor choice for any position of appointment.
Ultimately we should all see the greater problem of one elected official carrying dozens of nonelecteds with them into office. From there the corruption insues.
Also Jackie and Laura had zilch to do with winning a campaign, other than having the public like them for "being women who know there role". Hillary was more like a second in Bills 2 campaigns. For those with a 1950s mentality I am sure thats a problem. This is what Hillary faces now, she simply can't give everyone what they want. In our society a woman can't be steadfast, or no nonsense, or a pillar. They can only be a bitch. If not that, then they are too soft to hold a position of such responsibility. Its lose lose for her.
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