Author Topic: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
Ender_Sai 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Feb '01
44324_Kyle Katarn
Date Posted: 2/19 12:06am Subject: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
ATTN LEFTIES: If you come in here to discuss social justice without understanding the market then you will be pwned with logic, shown to be a detriment to the poor, and educated!

ATTN PAULBOTS: He's lost, you've lost, and this thread will focus on facts so you may find it daunting. wink

A stimulating notion


I AM a Keynesian now,” Richard Nixon declared in 1971. With the benefit of hindsight, his quip marked the high point of fiscal fine-tuning. Inspired by John Maynard Keynes's “General Theory”, many economists in the 1960s and early 1970s viewed government tax and spending decisions as the prime tool for smoothing the economic cycle. That confidence was later shattered by stagflation and rising budget deficits. The modern consensus has been that monetary policy, administered by an independent central bank, makes a better first weapon against recession than the whims of politicians.

But now, after more than three decades in the wilderness, Keynesian-style fiscal policy seems to be staging a comeback. On February 13th George Bush signed into law individual tax rebates and temporary investment incentives worth $152 billion (just over 1% of GDP) this year, and $168 billion in total. Passed in record time by the normally sluggish Congress—and before recession is even a certainty—the stimulus is aimed at cushioning America's downturn by getting cash into consumers' pockets and encouraging firms to invest.

Meanwhile debate has begun on the merits of a fiscal boost well beyond America. The IMF, traditionally a fierce guardian of budget probity, is pushing for broad fiscal loosening if the global economic outlook darkens. Monetary policy may be less effective in this downturn, argues the fund's managing director, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, and many countries are in unusually strong fiscal positions. At the G7 finance ministers' gathering in Tokyo on February 9th, he said that, in addition to America, countries making up a quarter of global GDP had the potential to cut taxes or increase spending—and urged them to begin contingency planning now.

A few non-American politicians are already thinking along those lines. Spain's government is putting together a fiscal-stimulus package as its economy slows in the wake of a construction bust. Alistair Darling, Britain's chancellor, has said his budget will be aimed at raising growth.

But many others are sceptical. Jean-Claude Trichet, president of the European Central Bank, has said bluntly that discretionary fiscal policy should be “avoided”. Joaquín Almunia, the European Commission's top man on economic matters, has given warning against “succumbing to the Sirens' songs”. Ken Rogoff, the IMF's former chief economist, says Mr Strauss-Kahn's plan seems “dubious”. A fair few economists within the fund agree.

Who is right depends on the answer to two questions. Do countries have more room to use counter-cyclical fiscal policy than they used to? And what is the evidence that it works?

bold or barmy?

Many of the world's rich economies have healthier budgets than before other recent downturns. In 2007 almost half of the countries within the OECD ran structural fiscal surpluses (that is, adjusted for the state of the business cycle). The euro zone's public finances have improved dramatically, from a combined structural deficit of 2.1% of GDP before the 2001 recession to a deficit of only 0.7% of GDP in 2007. Germany's budget is now virtually in balance. Spain, Ireland and Finland are all running surpluses.

Judging by fiscal deficits alone, it is America and Britain that should fret. In 2000 America ran a structural surplus; in 2007 it had an underlying deficit of 3% of GDP. At 3.1% of GDP, Britain's was slightly bigger (see chart).

Although cyclically adjusted budget positions give a better picture of a country's fiscal health than headline surpluses or deficits, they tell only a partial story. Countries have varying underlying debt burdens and face differing pressures from ageing populations. Japan has a big deficit, a large debt and the oldest population in the OECD. Britain has a bigger structural budget deficit than Italy, but much less debt (43% of GDP versus 105%).

Outside the OECD the fiscal situation has vastly improved. Thanks to better economic management and the boom in commodity prices, several emerging economies have enviably strong public finances. Measured properly, China's budget is in surplus (see article). High oil revenues have brought double-digit budget surpluses to the Gulf oil producers and pushed Russia's surplus over 6% of GDP. Brazil and Mexico both have deficits of less than 2% of GDP, a far cry from the fiscal laxness of a few years ago.

The news is not all good: India's budget deficit is still large. Countries such as Turkey and Hungary have large current-account deficits that would make fiscal expansions risky. But no longer is the option of countering a downturn with fiscal tools confined to rich countries.

But should that option be exercised? Sceptical economists argue that counter-cyclical stimulus often does more harm than good. Politicians traditionally fail to recognise recessions in time, and then take too long to enact stimulus. By the time tax cuts and spending increases arrive, the downturn is often over, and the extra stimulus simply adds inflationary pressure. Moreover, since politicians are usually unwilling to tighten fiscal policy enough in a boom, any loosening of the budget reins tends to result in permanently higher debt. Others argue that temporary stimulus, even if well timed, will not work because people will hardly adjust their spending in response to a one-off tax cut.

There is evidence to support all these worries. Most analyses of America's stimulus efforts in the 1970s conclude that they were badly timed. In continental Europe, the record suggests that activist fiscal policy brought permanently higher public spending and debt—a point Mr Trichet has been quick to note. Japan's experience is salutary. It tried to break deflationary stagnation in the 1990s with several fiscal packages. Debt soared but the country did not recover for a decade. Milton Friedman famously used Japan to argue that fiscal pump-priming didn't work.

But not all the evidence is negative. An influential study in 2001 by Adam Posen of the Peterson Institute and Ken Kuttner, now at Oberlin College, argued that Japan's debt burden stemmed from its stagnant economy not the stimulus packages. Stimulus appeared to fail because it was fitfully implemented. When tax cuts and spending boosts were enacted properly, their analysis suggests, they worked.

More recently, the post-mortems on America's 2001 fiscal boost have been positive. By luck more than design, the income-tax rebate was well timed (Mr Bush had promised to cut taxes long before the recession hit). It also seemed to work. One study suggested that people spent between 20-40% of their rebate in the quarter in which it was received, and over 60% of it within six months. Poorer, more credit-constrained people spent a higher share of their rebates.

Such studies have informed America's recent debate. Politicians have been urged to act quickly and keep the stimulus “targeted and temporary”. Two-thirds of the boost will come from tax rebates, which 130m American families are due to receive starting in May. If people spend roughly the same share of their rebate as they did in 2001, Morgan Stanley reckons output could grow at an annual rate of more than 4% in the third quarter of 2008.

That is a big boost but it will not last long. By the beginning of 2009, Morgan Stanley's economists expect GDP growth to slip back to 1.3%. A growing group of forecasters is now fretting about a “W” shaped, or double-dip, recession.

To Keynesian converts that outcome would simply call for more stimulus. Even before Mr Bush had signed this week's package, some Congressmen were talking about a second round, focused on extending unemployment insurance. Laurence Seidman of the University of Delaware says America has had “an excellent first dose” of stimulus and should be planning for a second if necessary. Traditionally, such talk would have sent shudders though the IMF. Now at least some within the fund's upper ranks seem to agree.

Less clear, however, is how far America's experience is applicable elsewhere. With stingier unemployment benefits and a lower federal tax take, America has fewer “automatic stabilisers” than other rich countries do. Since many American states are forced, by law, to run balanced budgets they cut spending or raise taxes in a downturn—the opposite of Keynesian pump-priming. Federal-stimulus packages, in part, counter those trends. With higher tax burdens and more generous jobless benefits, European countries get a bigger fiscal boost without any change in policy.

A few euro-zone economies, notably Spain and Ireland, may use the fiscal lever. But others seem content to rely on automatic stabilisers. Germany's finance minister has ruled out new counter-cyclical measures. France and Italy have headline deficits that could soon nudge against the 3% of GDP limit prescribed by the European Union's stability and growth pact.

Nor, for now, is there much enthusiasm for action in emerging markets. The economies with the strongest fiscal positions, such as China, need to worry about overheating more than slumping. But what if the outlook darkens? Many emerging economies, often at the IMF's behest, have limited their fiscal flexibility by introducing clear budget rules.

Nor are the mechanisms for swift stimulus obvious. Emerging economies, in general, have fewer automatic stabilisers than rich ones do. In China, for instance, personal income tax will be paid by only 30% of workers this year and accounts for just 7% of government revenue. Some poor countries, particularly those with excess household saving, could do with a better social safety net. But revamping health, education and pension systems takes time.

In many developing countries, infrastructure spending may be the most promising way for governments to support output—and boost the economy's long-term potential. Keynes argued that governments, in extremis, could boost demand by digging holes. Until now, few emerging economies had the luxury to contemplate his advice. Now that they do, roads, bridges and electricity grids would be a better bet.



I'm not sure how I feel about this.

Whilst none of us want recession, a Keynsian bailout forgoes any useful learning of lessons in favour of a magical fix. So potentially costly mistakes are reduced to near misses and the problematic behavior that caused this mess in the first place is given the impression it can continue.

To me, the problem with an increase in enthusiasm for Keynesian economics is that it's purely a reaction to the negative economic forecasts. There's doom and gloom on the horizons, the tea leaves tell us of bad omens and as such, we want comfort and solutions and continued prosperity.

I also suggest support for Ron Paul was grounded in this reactionary fear.

Abandoning Keynesian economics didnt'cause this mess, and in fact was unrelated. Keynes got a lot of stuff wrong, namely inflation. We don't need to vindicate him by avoiding a costly lesson we really need to learn.

So what doy ou think? Is the state the best solution tot he current financial crisis?

ES

 

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Mr44 
Registered: May '02
Date Posted: 2/19 1:29am Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
I suppose the economic-themed answer would be... maybe?

 

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Ender_Sai 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Feb '01
44324_Kyle Katarn
Date Posted: 2/19 6:14pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
Hm, thanks 44. Sorry, I guess in future I should be starting threads on the effect of comic books on vigilantes?

See you Senate, it's been a pleasure.

ES

 

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Lane_Winree 
Registered: Mar '06
16508_Wedge Antilles
Date Posted: 2/19 6:34pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
Ender you will be happy to know that I purchased a copy of the Economist from the local Barnes and Noble.

I, too, can look smart like you.

 

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DeathStar1977 
Registered: Jan '03
7850_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 2/19 6:36pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival) - Date Edited: 2/19 6:41pm (2 edits total) Edited By: DeathStar1977
Crap! I had an awesome post that I mistakenly deleted.

ES

Interesting that you bring up 1970s and monetary rates. I believe it was Paul Volcker, Carter's appointment to Fed Chair, who implemented a tight monetary policy (to the objection of many) to 'squeeze' out inflation, which would require a deep recession. Now, politicians can't risk looking like they aren't doing anything, even if that is exactly what should happen.

In many developing countries, infrastructure spending may be the most promising way for governments to support output—and boost the economy's long-term potential. Keynes argued that governments, in extremis, could boost demand by digging holes. Until now, few emerging economies had the luxury to contemplate his advice. Now that they do, roads, bridges and electricity grids would be a better bet.

But isn't this, at least on the surface, Keynsian in its approach? It's really a 'public works' proposal, not too different from the FDR/New Deal or many other similar subsequent proposals.

I must be brief because I'm heading out, but here in the U.S. my first instint would be to provide some sort of safety net towards those that will truly be screwed, and otherwise ride out the storm without adding more to the deficit or risking a further rise in inflation. Naturally I am very open to other suggestions, but it seems like many are purely poltically motivated and without consideration of fiscal impact or the considerations of future obligations.

 

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J-Rod 
Registered: Jul '04
19974_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 2/19 7:27pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival) - Date Edited: 2/19 7:30pm (1 edits total) Edited By: J-Rod
Whew! Good article.

Forgive me any major misunderstandings of Keynesian policy. I would say that many of the programs started during The Great Depression would be examples?

I'll give a tentative opinion geared towards learning...

In major economic debacles, IMO, all bets are off. We handled The Great Depression correctly. Combined with WWII, again IMO, the new programs worked. It's hard to debate historical fact. But what needs to happen, and didn't after TGD, is the markets must be restored ASAP. Again, it's hard to argue historical fact and anybody who is still in favor of Social Security is either;

1) A gutless polititian.

2) A believer in illicit Ponzy schemes.

3) Someone very comfortable with the familiar.

I believe that an economy as big as ours can only be successful if it's open and free. Artifically controlling any segment of the economy is dangerous at best, disaterous at worst.

Example: This week alone Social Security took $94.84 from my paycheck. With the legally required company match there was $189.68 given to the government's general fund "in my name." What would happen to the economy if;

1) My company didn't have to match my "contibution."

2) My contribution was actually invested into the economy 'til my retirement.

Would I need to have my retirement "supplemented" if i was invest 50 to 100 dollars every week of my working life?

And how much more tax revenue would the government be collecting for the stronger economy?

 

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Jediflyer 
Registered: Dec '01
6475_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 2/19 7:35pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)

And how much more tax revenue would the government be collecting for the stronger economy?


None. The Social Security money you pay in to the government is doled out to seniors who go ahead and spend it.

 

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J-Rod 
Registered: Jul '04
19974_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 2/19 7:39pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival) - Date Edited: 2/19 7:40pm (2 edits total) Edited By: J-Rod
Jediflyer posted:

And how much more tax revenue would the government be collecting for the stronger economy?


None. The Social Security money you pay in to the government is doled out to seniors who go ahead and spend it.



I don't think so. I believe that it's sent to the general fund. There is no "lock box." Along with Global Warming, it is another one of Gore's many lies. happy

 

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Jediflyer 
Registered: Dec '01
6475_Corran Horn
Date Posted: 2/19 7:45pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
J-Rod posted:
Jediflyer posted:

And how much more tax revenue would the government be collecting for the stronger economy?


None. The Social Security money you pay in to the government is doled out to seniors who go ahead and spend it.



I don't think so. I believe that it's sent to the general fund. There is no "lock box." Along with Global Warming, it is another one of Gore's many lies. happy


It does both, IIRC, because there is currently more money being paid in than paid out. Either way, the money is not being hidden from the economy but is being injected into it (by both the government and seniors).

And re Al Gore, he didn't say social security was a lockbox, that was his policy proposal.

 

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J-Rod 
Registered: Jul '04
19974_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 2/19 7:48pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival) - Date Edited: 2/19 7:49pm (1 edits total) Edited By: J-Rod
Typically, when the government spends money, such as SS, it doesn't have as great an impact as when it's used by the pople who've earned the money.

So is it hidden? No. But it's not used in the market. It's funneled to projects that are often finacial dead ends.

 

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Mr44 
Registered: May '02
Date Posted: 2/19 8:18pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
Hm, thanks 44. Sorry, I guess in future I should be starting threads on the effect of comic books on vigilantes?

See you Senate, it's been a pleasure.


Wow, remember when not everything had to be taken so seriously around here? Who was it who used to make jokes about "Mitt's" name as part of a larger political illustration? Who was it who used to poke fun of foreign policy with perhaps a Russell Crowe cartoon?

I could offer a detailed explanation on how my "maybe" comment was a pun directed at Keynesian economics itself because unlike classical economics, Keynes focused on the general trend and not the specific up or down of an economy.. (hence, the "maybe.") But it was joke and not meant to be taken seriously in the first place.

Literalness, thy now hail from Australia, how was the trip?

 

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Espaldapalabras 
Registered: Aug '05
46173_Robot Chicken: Ackbar Cereal
Date Posted: 2/19 8:29pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
I think giving ourselves a loan so that we can continue to spend does absolutely nothing to help us in the long run. I don't think fiscal discipline should be a left/right issue. The problem is that when it comes to fiscal policy politicians are all to eager to spend and never like raising taxes or cutting spending. That is the basic problem with Keynesian economics. Political leaders simply never have a short term reason to behave responsibly in the long term. In 4 or 8 years it will be somebody else's problem.

Now the 1% of GDP we are borrowing from our children really isn't that big of a deal, and I would say they acted quickly enough that it is hard to tell if it will have an effect. And it seems to me that it really won't have a huge effect on how investors learn or don't learn the lessons behind the current crisis. When the losers are bailed out because they are institutions so large we can't let them fail, that to me does far more to continue the bad practices.

What neo-liberals often fail to recognize when they complain about socialism is that profits are nearly always private, but we socialize the losses. The large institutions are protected from failure because letting them fail we destroy the economy, but when times are good they take all the profits.

 

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Ender_Sai 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Feb '01
44324_Kyle Katarn
Date Posted: 2/19 8:41pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
44, relax, everyone knows the Senate needs drama now and then! I just needed to get this going without economic boredom. tongue

Good points, all.

As an aside, in Britain the state has just assumed control of Northern Rock, a large lender affected by the subprime crisis in the US. David Cameron, the Conservative leader, denounced the move by saying it was “a disaster for the taxpayer, a disaster for this government and a disaster for our country.”

Not sure I fully agree, but...

Is this part of the seemingly limited-to-the-US Keynsian revival?

ES

 

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Mr44 
Registered: May '02
Date Posted: 2/19 8:50pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
44, relax, everyone knows the Senate needs drama now and then! I just needed to get this going without economic boredom.

Alright then.

 

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DeathStar1977 
Registered: Jan '03
7850_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 2/19 9:12pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
Esp

Excellent, excellent post. I especially liked:

What neo-liberals often fail to recognize when they complain about socialism is that profits are nearly always private, but we socialize the losses. The large institutions are protected from failure because letting them fail we destroy the economy, but when times are good they take all the profits.

ES

What is your opinion as to what should (if anything) be done vis-a-vis the predicted recession? IMO, in a nutshell, the left-right paradigm of reactionary policies towards economics doesn't take into account how economics change, especially considering globalization, which is inevitable.

Anyone see that recent picture of Russell Crowe? He gained a ton of weight. He looks like Comic Book Guy.

 

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yankee8255 
Registered: May '05
23980_Luke
Date Posted: 2/19 11:23pm Subject: RE: The Economics Thread (now discussing: Keynsian revival)
Bush, of course, essentially went Keynesian from the get go, cutting taxes while increasing spending as soon as he got into office. Decent short-term recovery, but not much more, and now the bills are coming due. I'm skeptical that the latest measures will do much, maybe flatten out the bottom, but at a significant long term cost. Still, I'd be happy if they took a cue from the New Deal and started spending on infrastructure, at least some long-term good would come out of this.

J-Rod, regarding the New Deal, it did provide for a modest recovery for a few years; by 1939-40, however, unemployment rates were back near where they had been to begin with. The real savior from the Great Depression was WWII.

 

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