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Author	Topic: The business of being born
chibiangi Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 2/19 9:50pm Subject: The business of being born
	Now for something totally different. You can see the trailor here: http://www.thebusinessofbeingborn.com/ I've been waiting to see this for awhile and hopefully will get a chance. It's a new documentary about giving birth in America. America has some pretty bad stats when it comes to infant mortality when compared to other developed countries. We also have some of the highest rates of medical intervention, mostly completely unnecessary, in developed countries. In a pay for service medical environment, the basic act of being born has become a capitalistic endeavor where women have been told repeatedly they are incapable of birthing babies without various, often unnecessary and harmful, medical procedures. I decided awhile ago should I, even at my advanced age, be in the position of becoming a mother that my children will be born at home barring any need for other intervention (e.g. known c-section due to whatever reasons.) I recently had a friend give birth at home to a 10lbs (OMG!) baby completely unassisted, completely complication free, and under 4 hours of hard labor. I do not believe this is a rarity. I believe this is totally normal and what should be expected when a woman knows her body, knows what will happen, and knows what complications to look for and has a partner as equally informed. Now of course, people will say many women have also died during childbirth. Keep in mind though that access to antibiotics was not a possibility until well into the last century. I do not believe her experience was a freak of nature. The medicalization of childbirth has removed both parents from having an active role in their child's birth. For women, they are told what to do and when to do it, pumped full of hormones to speed the labor process, and cut open for no reason other than common practice. For men, they are shuttled off into a corner somewhere. My friend said her fiancee's response to "catching" their baby is one that could never be matched. He had an active part in conceiving her and an active part in bringing her into this world. This same feeling could still be acheived in a home birth that is midwife attended. I somehow doubt that would be the case in a hospital. What disturbs me most is that some states completely ban midwifery and make it very difficult for a child who was homebirthed to get into the system. According to wiki: Practicing as a direct-entry midwife is still (as of May 2006) illegal under certain circumstances in Washington, D.C. and the following states: Alabama, Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Maryland, Missouri, North Carolina, South Dakota and Wyoming.[12] However, Certified Nurse Midwives can legally practice in these areas. Ok well, I guess I don't have an argument here so much as just a discussion about having babies. Uhm, ok. I'm just excited. -----signature----- Talk nerdy to me. mujaki na kao de boku ni hohoemu
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Mr44 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 2/19 10:44pm Subject: RE: The business of being born
	Congrats for your friend! Was it a boy or girl? However, 10Lbs! That must have been a uhh...fun time... Back on topic though, what is entailed in the certification for midwives? It's not a very common practice is it? -----signature----- Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability. .............................................................. Peter Shoomaker
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Lowbacca_1977 Title: Senate Moderator Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 2/19 10:55pm Subject: RE: The business of being born
	Regarding infant mortality.... from what I've read, that seems to be comparing apples to oranges since different countries have different standards as to what counts as a birth to begin with, so that some births count as births here that would not be counted elsewhere, particularly when it comes to underweight or premature births.
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Sherylin Registered: Nov '05	Date Posted: 2/20 2:21am Subject: RE: The business of being born
	This is an interesting topic for discussion. I had my baby born in the hospital, and we had serious problems. I know that both me and my child would die if the birth took place elsewhere. The doctors in the hospital saved my son though he had to stay in the intensive care for several days. We have serious problems with health, and we read interesting medical articles in the internet. My husband told me, that if the events took place in USA, the american doctors would help my son, and he could be treated in a different way and be healthy. For example, he had mecounium aspiration straight after birth, and the doctors had to keep him on artificial pulmonary ventilation. If they would only cleanse his mouth and nose before he screamed for the first time, and before he breathed in the meconium, then the procedure of artificial pulmonary ventilation would not be necessary. I heard that in USA the doctors practice to cleanse the mouth and nose of the baby as soon as the head shows, not wait until he is born entirely and screams. The artificial lung ventilation was the cause that pneumonia developped, and the doctors gave him antibiotics intravenously, and then he got very ill because the high dosage of antibiotics ruined the balance of his immune system. Soon he was diagnosed the IBD (ulcerative colitis) and now he has this incurable chronic illness. It's not that I blame our doctors - it is common practice in our country. He could be dead if they didn't help him to breath, so it was the choice they had to make. But I am the one who has to live with the cosequences. Also, I would not want my husband see me or hear me when I give birth to his son. It was a painful experience, and when I woke next morning, I could hardly speak. I asked the nurse, what is the problem with my throat, and she looked at me and said: "You screamed and strained your voice." My Mum came, helped me to go to the shower, and get dressed, and only then I was ready to see my husband. Actually, I guess it is better for him to see his woman smiling and peaceful, not in pain and sufferings, but that's just my opinion. -----signature----- "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, The Fellowship of the Ring.
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Mr44 Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 2/20 11:35am Subject: RE: The business of being born
	Welcome back to the forum Sherylin, we haven't seen you posting for a while. I'm glad to see that your child ended up being ok. How is everything else going for you? -----signature----- Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability. .............................................................. Peter Shoomaker
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Sherylin Registered: Nov '05	Date Posted: 2/20 1:14pm Subject: RE: The business of being born
	Mr44 posted: Welcome back to the forum Sherylin, we haven't seen you posting for a while. I'm glad to see that your child ended up being ok. How is everything else going for you? All is well, thank you for asking. My son is feeling well. He will be five years old in April. He learns so many new things as the days are flying by, he can read already! I think he will be able to go to school for healthy children because he is feeling well and there were no symptoms of his disease for about a year. I didn't post here for some time because I stayed away from the forums, I didn't come to read any messages here. Truth is I was very depressed and upset, but now I feel much better, and back to my ordinary peaceful state of mind. I think I shall be coming to the Senate floor and other forums of JCC more often now. Thank you for warm greeting. ~Shery~ -----signature----- "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, The Fellowship of the Ring.
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chibiangi Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 2/22 6:19pm Subject: RE: The business of being born
	Mr44 posted: Congrats for your friend! Was it a boy or girl? However, 10Lbs! That must have been a uhh...fun time... Back on topic though, what is entailed in the certification for midwives? It's not a very common practice is it? Yep, a healthy 10lbs of girl in only a few strong pushes with no tearing. I believe most states have state licensing. They are medically trained, just not doctors. As far as infant mortality, the statistics are there and they are not bent. The countries with the lowest infant mortality rates are the Scandinavian countries where the majority of births are home births. The US has a terrible mortality rate and we also have highly medicalized births. Now, I do believe this is multifaceted in that prenatal care, socioeconomic status, and education play significant roles. However, if the vast majority of births happen in hospitals where the infants are cared for by trained staff with all the latest technology is it that our mortality rate is so poor? Perhaps the technology isn't as necessary as we think it is. People will always counter the idea of home birth with "what if" scenarios of things that can go wrong. Well, "what if" the doctor screws up? What if your baby catches an infection at the hospital? There is no guarantee that your baby will fare any better in a hospital delivery where more likely than not you will be pushed with picotin and a rushed delivery. http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/05/08/mothers.index/index.html [quote] (CNN) -- An estimated 2 million babies die within their first 24 hours each year worldwide and the United States has the second worst newborn mortality rate in the developed world, according to a new report. American babies are three times more likely to die in their first month as children born in Japan, and newborn mortality is 2.5 times higher in the United States than in Finland, Iceland or Norway, Save the Children researchers found. Only Latvia, with six deaths per 1,000 live births, has a higher death rate for newborns than the United States, which is tied near the bottom of industrialized nations with Hungary, Malta, Poland and Slovakia with five deaths per 1,000 births. "The United States has more neonatologists and neonatal intensive care beds per person than Australia, Canada and the United Kingdom, but its newborn rate is higher than any of those countries," said the annual State of the World's Mothers report. The report, which analyzed data from governments, research institutions and international agencies, found higher newborn death rates among U.S. minorities and disadvantaged groups. For African-Americans, the mortality rate is nearly double that of the United States as a whole, with 9.3 deaths per 1,000 births. Sub-Saharan Africa remains the worst place in the world to be a mother or child, with Scandinavian nations again taking the top spots in the rankings by the Connecticut-based humanitarian group. Sweden heads the list, with Niger last. (10 worst and best) The "Mothers' Index" in the report ranks 125 nations according to 10 gauges of well-being -- six for mothers and four for children -- including objective measures such as lifetime mortality risk for mothers and infant mortality rate and subjective measures such as the political status of women. Charles MacCormack, president and CEO of Save the Children, said the report card "illustrates the direct line between the status of mothers and the status of their children." "In countries where mothers do well, children do well," he said in a written statement accompanying the report. But each year, according to the report, more than a half-million women die as a result of pregnancy and childbirth difficulties, 2 million babies die within their first 24 hours, 2 million more die within their first month and 3 million are stillborn. An unhealthy start As Americans celebrate Mother's Day on Sunday, "5,000 mothers will mourn the loss of the newborn they bear that very day in the developing world," said Anne Tinker, director of Save the Children's Saving Newborn Lives initiative. "All children, no matter where they are born, deserve a healthy start in life," Melinda Gates wrote in a foreword to the report, which was funded in part by the foundation she runs with her husband, Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates. MacCormack said "significant progress" had been made in reducing deaths in children under age 5 in recent years, but "we have made little progress in reducing mortality rates for babies during the first month of life." Causes of death in the developing world were dramatically different from those in the developed world, the report said. In industrialized nations deaths were most likely to result from babies being born too small or too early, while in the developing world about half of newborn deaths were from infection, tetanus and diarrhea. The newborn mortality rate in the United States has fallen in recent decades, the report said, but continues to affect minorities disproportionately. Only 17 percent of all U.S. births were to African-American families, but 33 percent of all low-birthweight babies were African-American, according to the report. The research also found that poorer mothers with less education were at a significantly higher risk of early delivery. The study added that in general lower educational attainment was associated with higher newborn mortality. Tinker said some nations ranked high in part because they offer free health services for pregnant women and babies, while the United States suffers from disparities in access to health care. "We can do better here, but what's really important is that we do something" in the developing world, she said. The report said almost all newborn and maternal deaths take place in developing nations -- 99 percent and 98 percent, respectively. The newborn mortality rates were particularly high in countries with a recent history of armed conflict, including Liberia and Sierra Leone. But the report also concluded that political will was more important than national wealth. A "newborn scorecard" ranking 78 developing nations found that some relatively impoverished countries -- including Colombia, Mexico, Nicaragua and Vietnam -- fare better than others. Ranking at the bottom of the scorecard were Liberia, Afghanistan, Angola and Iraq -- countries where armed conflict and cultural practices impede newborn survival. "It's tragic that millions of newborns die every year, especially when these deaths are so easily preventable," Gates wrote. "Three out of four newborn deaths could be avoided with simple, low-cost tools that already exist, such as antibiotics for pneumonia, sterile blades to cut umbilical cords and knit caps to keep babies warm." 'The good news' The Mothers' Index -- which excluded some nations that lacked sufficient data -- highlights huge disparities between the nations at the top and the bottom of the list. Compared with mothers in the top 10 countries, a mother in the bottom 10 was found to be more than 750 times more likely to die in pregnancy or childbirth. In top-ranked Sweden, skilled personnel are present at nearly all births, but in bottom-ranked Niger, such help is available for only 16 percent of women in labor. "The good news," said MacCormack, "is that we know what it takes to help these moms and children survive and thrive." The report highlights the three areas it says have the most influence on child well-being: female education, presence of a trained attendant at birth and use of family planning services. Educated women, the report said, are more likely to marry and give birth later in life, to seek health care and to encourage education for their children, including girls. The report said that family planning and increased contraception use leads to lower maternal and infant death rates. Many women and children in developing nations, it said, die as a result of births that come at the wrong time -- too close together, too early or too late in the mother's life. [/quote] -----signature----- Talk nerdy to me. mujaki na kao de boku ni hohoemu
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beezel26 Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 2/23 4:19am Subject: RE: The business of being born
	There is a CR from a Canadian fanforce that is a certified midwife. She went to school for it as well. Being certified is the key. not many women get into it as a career even though they could in nursing school.
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Sauntaero Registered: Jul '03	Date Posted: 2/23 12:03pm Subject: RE: The business of being born - Date Edited: 2/23 12:09pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sauntaero
	I can see how getting the baby 'registered' might be a problem with home births. If nothing else, a hospital ward is a go-between to deal with the legal side of birth. A doctor (or midwife) can attest that this really is her child, exactly when and where it was born. If it's born at home, without a licensed midwife, it's only the parents' word and responsibility going to make that baby a future citizen. I guess the whole business could definitely be simplified. But how can a doctor be restricted from giving unnecessary advice to his patients? That's his whole career, and he is a trained professional and an expert in that area. How comfortable would most people be going against their doctor's suggestion for drugs, operations, and such, especially at such a crucial time as birthing? Sherilyn, when your son was born, did you have any idea that it could have been done differently? Or did the solution only become clear later? I'm guessing you were in no condition to know about this complication or make decisions like that, and trusted the doctors. But I'm glad to hear he's doing well! -----signature----- I just hope I'm around to see the day the New Republic catches up with you. Whether they give you a medal or just shoot you--either way, it'll be a terrific show. Si hoc legere scis nimium, eruditionis habes. Obama 08
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chibiangi Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 2/23 7:49pm Subject: RE: The business of being born
	You register the baby same as anything. It only becomes a problem if the agency screws up. -----signature----- Talk nerdy to me. mujaki na kao de boku ni hohoemu
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Sherylin Registered: Nov '05	Date Posted: 2/23 11:31pm Subject: RE: The business of being born - Date Edited: 2/23 11:36pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Sherylin
	Sauntaero posted: Sherilyn, when your son was born, did you have any idea that it could have been done differently? Or did the solution only become clear later? I'm guessing you were in no condition to know about this complication or make decisions like that, and trusted the doctors. But I'm glad to hear he's doing well! I had complications during pregnancy, and I spent months in the hospital. The doctors did some tests, and gave me some medication to help me keep my baby. I can tell they took good care of me, and tried to help me and my unborn child. When it was time to have the baby born, the doctor made an injection, she wanted to make it all go quick, I think, and she stimulated me. Then it all went very fast, and later I was told that I had accelerated [precipitated] labor. My son had cerebral haemorrhage because of this. The doctors stimulated him to come out quickly, and the difference of blood pressure in his small head and the pressure of air outside caused cyst in his brain. The cyst dissolved after a year, and we kept my son on special medication to help circulation of the blood in his head. But the doctors told me that it happens very often. When it comes to questions of drugs (medication) and the illness of my son, I must tell you that some of the medication, including some vitamins and mineral complexes, carry the risk to harm his colon. My son has chronic inflammatory bowel disease, and I know from experience that the antibiotics, neurologic pills, aspirin and others, are very bad for his colon, they cause irritation, inflammation and sometimes colon bleeding. He was very ill during his first year, and it was in-and-out the hospital for us. I remember we spent 40 days in the hospital once and it was so difficult for me. The doctors treated him well, he got necesary help and courses of treatment. So now I only take him to the medical center for tests, and the doctors tell us all is well. I give him some medication, mineral complex with calcium, and some drugs to improve the work of his digestive system, according to what the doctors tell us. Also he must keep strict diet. The doctors gave us the list of forbidden food, and a special diet that my son must keep, so that he feels well. We have a number of food products, a list of recipes for him, and a shedule that he must keep. He has an illness of immune system, and I don't know if it was caused by the circumstances of his birth, or if this is a hereditary illness. The doctors never told me. -----signature----- "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, The Fellowship of the Ring.
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Obi Anne Title: FanForce RSA Europe Registered: Nov '98	Date Posted: 2/24 3:06am Subject: RE: The business of being born
	chibiangi posted: The countries with the lowest infant mortality rates are the Scandinavian countries where the majority of births are home births. Living in Sweden I must say that this is totally wrong. I don't know anyone remotely close to me that has had a home birth, in fact it comes up in the papers now and then but I'd say it's considered as a kind of "weird" options. The normal way is to go to hospital, in fact a lot of the health care policy discussions are centered around mothers who think the hospitals are too far away when it's time for the births, and considering that it can be a coupleof 100 km to the nearest hosital I can't really blame them. -----signature----- Tea one, proud member of the Tea Squad, FanForce Meeting 2006, Berlin GSADMINCOACHEMPERORRULERPRESIDENTTSARMINISTERQUEEN liuba
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chibiangi Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 2/24 10:13am Subject: RE: The business of being born
	Obi Anne posted: chibiangi posted: The countries with the lowest infant mortality rates are the Scandinavian countries where the majority of births are home births. Living in Sweden I must say that this is totally wrong. I don't know anyone remotely close to me that has had a home birth, in fact it comes up in the papers now and then but I'd say it's considered as a kind of "weird" options. The normal way is to go to hospital, in fact a lot of the health care policy discussions are centered around mothers who think the hospitals are too far away when it's time for the births, and considering that it can be a coupleof 100 km to the nearest hosital I can't really blame them. Interesting! Thanks for sharing. I will ask my friend had given me that information. I might have screwed up! I am new to learning about this. Are hospital births done by doctors or midwives and is there a lot of medical intervention? The injection of picotin is pretty common here to speed up the birth but it comes with it risks and I have heard it makes the process more painful for the moth. Is that common? Perhaps the difference isn't in the place of birth but the intervention? -----signature----- Talk nerdy to me. mujaki na kao de boku ni hohoemu
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Obi Anne Title: FanForce RSA Europe Registered: Nov '98	Date Posted: 2/24 1:42pm Subject: RE: The business of being born
	To be honest I'm not sure, haven't had any experience of it myself. My sister has had two births though and I think in most cases there is a midwife around that does most of the work, but if there are complications then a doctor is called in. When my sister had twins the doctor was there all the time, that was a bit more complicated than a normal birth do and ended with a C-section. One thing that is brought up as very good thing with the system here though is that there are a lot of controls leading up to the births. There have been comparisons between women born in Sweden and immigrants and the Swedish mothers who were used to going to the "mother's care" on a routine had easier births and less complications compared to the mothers who only went to the hospital when it was time to give birth. Also since we have a national health care system it doesn't cost much to go and get checked regularly during the pregnancy. These pre-checks are carried out by nurses and midwives, and if there are suspicions that something is not normal you are sent to a specialist care unit as soon as possible. For example as soon as my sister got to know that she was expecting twins she was sent to that unit just because of that even if everything else was OK with her, I've also been told that if I ever get pregnant I should go to that unit since I have diabetes and they are more alert to things that might be different. So in short I would say that a reason why the Swedish health care system around childbirths is so well respected is not because everything is "natural" but rather because almost all future mothers get into the system and are checked from the start to the finish of the pregnancy, and even after that since the babies are automatically transfered to the "child care" health system and every child is checked upon with certain intervals up to I think three or four years of age. -----signature----- Tea one, proud member of the Tea Squad, FanForce Meeting 2006, Berlin GSADMINCOACHEMPERORRULERPRESIDENTTSARMINISTERQUEEN liuba
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Lowbacca_1977 Title: Senate Moderator Registered: Jun '06	Date Posted: 2/24 2:13pm Subject: RE: The business of being born
	Regarding infant mortality... I'd commented on this earlier but I've actually gone and gotten this sourced now... my original source had been from Moorewatch.com, a biased site, but they source their argument. Going with some Wikipedia: Infant Mortality posted: While the United States reports every case of infant mortality, many other countries do not. For example, a 2006 artilce in U.S. News & World Report states, "First, it's shaky ground to compare U.S. infant mortality with reports from other countries. The United States counts all births as live if they show any sign of life, regardless of prematurity or size. This includes what many other countries report as stillbirths. In Austria and Germany, fetal weight must be at least 500 grams (1 pound) to count as a live birth; in other parts of Europe, such as Switzerland, the fetus must be at least 30 centimeters (12 inches) long. In Belgium and France, births at less than 26 weeks of pregnancy are registered as lifeless. And some countries don't reliably register babies who die within the first 24 hours of birth. Thus, the United States is sure to report higher infant mortality rates. For this very reason, the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, which collects the European numbers, warns of head-to-head comparisons by country." [2] So, with that in mind, could it be that the U.S. infant mortality problem one caused by simply how things are counted, as the above suggests, or the link I gave at the top, which also suggests more premature births being the problem, rather than an issue with the style of care in the U.S.? How does one base a comparison of two statistics if the statistics are unequal?
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