Author Topic: The return to urbanism
dizfactor 
Registered: Aug '02
6896_Obi-Wan<br>LEGO
Date Posted: 2/28 5:38pm Subject: RE: The return to urbanism
Zoning laws, which often include things like minimum and maximum lot sizes, are pretty well-established prerogatives of government, as are environmental laws. We also continue to actively subsidize critical elements of the unsustainable suburban lifestyle (through highway and sewer construction, tax breaks for children, etc, plus all the ways in which military action in the Middle East is a backdoor subsidy on oil), so we're already using government policy for social engineering, just in the wrong direction.

The simple reality is this: we are not going to be able to sustain our current standards of living 50 years from now unless most people in this country are living in a higher-density pattern than they are now. We are currently building the built environment we are going to have to live in over the next few decades, so we need to stop building the wrong buildings ASAP. Because we've been subsidizing the wrong kinds of buildings in the wrong patterns for half a century now, it will at the very least require us to seriously cut back on the subsidies we already have in place to allow things to grow in the direction they need to grow, and it may require corrective intervention to undo the damage we've already done.

Our current infrastructure is an albatross around our necks, and we've been using serious government intervention to do everything we can to make it as big a problem as we could for many years now and now it's kind of an emergency.

There may be other ways of getting there, admittedly, but we do need to get there pronto. Obviously, smart growth zoning rules on the level of local and state governments would help, as would some kind of carbon tax, repealing some of the more perverse incentives in our government spending and our tax code, etc. If we're going to spend a grip on our aging infrastructure, which we probably need to, we should make it greener in every sense, including encouraging denser habitation and public transit.

If this were 1980, we would have time to let the market take its course, but since then, we've actively encouraged several waves of suburb and exurb building through government intervention, and we need to do infill on the suburbs already built and stop building new ones, and we don't really have a lot of time to do it.

 

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Kimball_Kinnison 
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 2/28 5:53pm Subject: RE: The return to urbanism
dizfactor posted:
Zoning laws, which often include things like minimum and maximum lot sizes, are pretty well-established prerogatives of government, as are environmental laws. We also continue to actively subsidize critical elements of the unsustainable suburban lifestyle (through highway and sewer construction, tax breaks for children, etc, plus all the ways in which military action in the Middle East is a backdoor subsidy on oil), so we're already using government policy for social engineering, just in the wrong direction.

The simple reality is this: we are not going to be able to sustain our current standards of living 50 years from now unless most people in this country are living in a higher-density pattern than they are now. We are currently building the built environment we are going to have to live in over the next few decades, so we need to stop building the wrong buildings ASAP. Because we've been subsidizing the wrong kinds of buildings in the wrong patterns for half a century now, it will at the very least require us to seriously cut back on the subsidies we already have in place to allow things to grow in the direction they need to grow, and it may require corrective intervention to undo the damage we've already done.

Our current infrastructure is an albatross around our necks, and we've been using serious government intervention to do everything we can to make it as big a problem as we could for many years now and now it's kind of an emergency.

There may be other ways of getting there, admittedly, but we do need to get there pronto. Obviously, smart growth zoning rules on the level of local and state governments would help, as would some kind of carbon tax, repealing some of the more perverse incentives in our government spending and our tax code, etc. If we're going to spend a grip on our aging infrastructure, which we probably need to, we should make it greener in every sense, including encouraging denser habitation and public transit.

If this were 1980, we would have time to let the market take its course, but since then, we've actively encouraged several waves of suburb and exurb building through government intervention, and we need to do infill on the suburbs already built and stop building new ones, and we don't really have a lot of time to do it.
You don't like suburbs or rural areas. We get it. Now please, get over yourself.

You use zoning laws as an example, but they aren't really a good example. Zoning laws are handled on the local level. You were talking about a blanket ban nationwide.

Dealing with things on the local level allows flexibility to meet the specific needs of the community. The needs in Washington DC are going to be significantly different from the needs in Omaha, Nebraska, and both of them will be significantly different from any other place that you could name. Zoning laws are not a one-size-fits-all approach to things. They are customized to meet the needs of each specific community.

You keep asserting that we can't maintain our standard of living, but where is your proof of that? What data do you base that on? What assumptions are you making to go along with your analysis?

You have no idea what technology will be available in 50 years. Look back to 1958, and tell me how many people were able to guess that something like the Internet was possible. The thought of a home computer (or indeed any computer) that could fit on your lap (without crushing you) was unthinkable. The transistor, upon which much of the modern age is based, was practically unknown 60 years ago.

If there is one absolute truth in our society, it is that necessity is the mother of invention. As we see a need for things, we have a tendency to find a way to solve the problems we face. When we developed a need to send messages quickly over long distances, we developed the telegraph, and then the telephone. When we needed ways to transport people faster and over longer distances, we developed trains, automobiles, and airplanes.

On what basis do you think that we cannot similarly overcome the challenges that we face in the next 50 years?

Kimball Kinnison

 

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dizfactor 
Registered: Aug '02
6896_Obi-Wan<br>LEGO
Date Posted: 2/28 6:03pm Subject: RE: The return to urbanism
We have already developed the technology to solve this problem. Mid-to-high density housing built using "bright green" building techniques is the technology. Presumably, as we build the housing of the future, we will get better and better at it and refine it further, but we already have it.

However, the nature of the problem is such that the public perception of the cost/benefit ratio is skewed, and that skew is compounded by a culture that is dependent on the infrastructure we've already built and by government subsidies of that infrastructure that distort the costs. Market forces will not be able to adequately address this issue until the real costs of carbon consumption are priced into housing and transportation and everything else, but because we've not only avoided doing that for the past 50 years but actively moved things the other way, we might need a harder corrective to implement the technology shift.

 

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Kimball_Kinnison 
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 2/29 3:30am Subject: RE: The return to urbanism
dizfactor posted:
We have already developed the technology to solve this problem. Mid-to-high density housing built using "bright green" building techniques is the technology. Presumably, as we build the housing of the future, we will get better and better at it and refine it further, but we already have it.
Obviously we don't have the technology to solve it if your proposed solution wouldbe completely unacceptable to a majority of people. (And you and I both know that it would be unacceptable to most people, otherwise you wouldn't be trying to force it on everyone.)

dizfactor posted:
However, the nature of the problem is such that the public perception of the cost/benefit ratio is skewed, and that skew is compounded by a culture that is dependent on the infrastructure we've already built and by government subsidies of that infrastructure that distort the costs. Market forces will not be able to adequately address this issue until the real costs of carbon consumption are priced into housing and transportation and everything else, but because we've not only avoided doing that for the past 50 years but actively moved things the other way, we might need a harder corrective to implement the technology shift.
Where is your proof for all of this? You assert a lot of things here, but you aren't backing much of it up.

Kimball KInnison

 

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You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Jabbadabbado 
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 2/29 9:35am Subject: RE: The return to urbanism
Personally, I don't think dizfactor is going to have to force this on anyone.

Analysts at UBS (UBS) said Friday they expect financial firms worldwide to take writedowns totaling $600 billion in the wake of the breakdown of debt markets that started in June. The comment comes a day after insurance giant AIG (AIG) took an $11 billion hit on its portfolio of credit default swaps and government-sponsored mortgage lender Freddie Mac (FRE) took $3.1 billion in writedowns on its credit guarantee and derivatives holdings.

The commercial/financial underpinnings of American suburban expansion are coming undone. Add to that the possibility of $4, $5, $6, $7 gas as well as dramatic increases in utility costs (as the price of coal and natural gas gets bid up along with oil) and the issue will be decided for people, decisively.

 

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Espaldapalabras 
Registered: Aug '05
46173_Robot Chicken: Ackbar Cereal
Date Posted: 2/29 3:09pm Subject: RE: The return to urbanism
Diz just needs to understand that the carrot works much better than the stick, and doesn't cause nearly as many problems or backlash. It is the difference between forcing democracy upon nations by force and giving them incentives and being a good example of it.

Being self righteous might make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but it doesn't actually solve the problems.

And there is a difference between removing current negative carrots, and the stick approach Diz advocates.

 

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Espaldapalabras 
Registered: Aug '05
46173_Robot Chicken: Ackbar Cereal
Date Posted: 3/1 1:15pm Subject: RE: The return to urbanism
Mountain West is absolutely thriving, and yes, a lot of that has to do with the migration of affluent, educated Californians who are being priced out of California. But that doesn't undermine my case, it strengthens it. California is an expanding society, in the process of colonizing its neighbors.

I think you like having California take credit for things that it didn't really do. Sure the influx of Californians props up housing prices, making my parent's house worth much more while pricing me out of the market, but the influx is also a mixed bag. I mean you decry the expansion of suburbs, but there isn't a better example of suburban sprawl than California. So instead of having the middle class move out to the suburbs or ex-urbs that are too far away, they move out to other states in the desert and fuel suburban expansion here. And quite frankly we don't have enough water for all of California to move here, and I don't want Boise or Salt Lake to turn into a clone of LA. Yes I was aware that the entire Mountain West is experiencing the same thing, I did live in Idaho for the past 3 years, and Eastern Idaho which current has a population of around 300,000 is expected to grow to at least a million in the next 15 years. Where we will grow our potatoes, I don’t know.

 

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