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Topic:
anti-semitism
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
3/4 7:37am
Subject:
anti-semitism
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Love Gershwin. Love Perry Farrell. Love Seinfeld! And I have been moved by the tale of the Wandering Jew. I think the Hebrew script looks nice and I think the diaspora is a tragedy unequaled in history.
Yet... I have been called an anti-semite.
Why? Because I think Hamas should be allowed at the negotiations table.
Now, over here in Holland, everyone who is critical about Israeli politics is sooner or later tagged an anti-semite by certain groups. This sees to it that these people are cast aside as being too radical.
I suppose the same thing happens in Israel and the US, when people are critical about the Israeli government or American Jewish support groups.
So my questions to the Senate are...:
- Do you think somebody is an anti-semite when they think Israel should negotiate with Hamas?
- How should I respond when people call me an anti-semite? What's the best course of action, that has the best effect?
- Is there any escaping it, in striving for a just peace?
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
3/4 7:58am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
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It was a stunning turn of events in the U.S. when, out of the blue, the American Christian right became best friends with Israel. A religous doctrine sprang up to support this, to be sure, but more importantly, Israel's get tough preemptive war on Hamas tickled the fancy of conservatives as a microcosm of Bush's approach to the Middle East. That was when it looked like it was going to succeed. When it failed in almost precisely the same way that Bush's war on Iraq failed, then of course conservatives fell silent on the issue.
There's a huge amount of irony in all that. But I don't have an answer for the anti-semitism accusation. Israel would like to equate any criticism of Israel's policy vis a vis Palestinians and Lebanon as criticism of Israel's right to survive which, they argue, is anti-Semitic on its face.
From the point of view of the U.S., the pro-Israel lobby is very strong. On the other hand, America's need for Saudi oil suggests that a balanced approach to the region is required. From my perspective, Israel can't do much to guarantee U.S. access to Middle Eastern oil. What does unqualified support for Israel buy the U.S. in the region? A whole lot of heartache.
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Alpha-Red
Registered:
Apr '04
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Date Posted:
3/5 12:22am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
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Personally I think Hamas is absolutely screwed up in how it thinks it has the right to murder civilians as a means of "defense". In that regard, no I don't think Hamas should be negotiated with, at least not until they meet several conditions. But this by no means makes you an anti-Semite.
I would say I'm pro-Israel in that I think they have the right to exist and that other countries have no business trying to threaten them with genocide. However, I am not pro-Greater Israel. Just as proponents of "Greater Germany" or "Greater Serbia" thought they had the right to step on other people to advance their national glory, it seems like there are some Israelis that hold such an identical mindset. From what I've seen, the problem with the pro-Israel lobby is not that they're strong, but that they're unethical and they try to feed off ignorance. It almost seems like they want unconditional support from the United States, and that's something we never gave to even our closest allies, Britain and France, during the Cold War, and it's not something we should give to Israel now especially when they deserve some amount of criticism.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
3/5 1:06am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
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Well, Alpha-Red, that's a commendable stance. An actually workable one. If everyone who thinks of themselves as pro-Israel would acknowledge that hate labels don't promote peace, we'd be further on our way. Of course, this goes for the pro-Palestinian side as well.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
3/5 1:50am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
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I actually don't believe the religous doctrine came up to support America's policy towards Israel, which is not a liberal/conservative issue, or even that it came up to support the conservative viewpoint of it. Perhaps it seems that way because the rise of Evangelicalism occured in much the same time period as the rise of support for Israel here in the US, namely from the 60s onward. The religious doctrine can be explained well within the context of Evangelical's focus on revelation and end of times. What is true is that politically they joined forces with the neo-cons, especially in the past 8 years, but if you look back the evangelicals didn't have anything to do with the formation of Israel, but saw it as a fulfillment of revelation and want to see it moved along.
Of course the weird thing is, when they are spending money on sending back every Jew they can, is that according to their doctrine they think they will all be destroyed.
Personally, I don't know that the return of a political state called "Israel" has anything at all to do with Revelations, and I don't think Christ needs me to help the Jews get back to Israel to start Armagedon so he can come back. Being good and helping people understand the truth seem like much better ways to go about it.
As for Hamas, they don't deserve a place at the table. I know Israel's actions make it hard to condemn all terrorism there, but I don't think it is ever right to go after civilian targets, because if Hamas can do it and still be given legitimacy, then on what moral authority can you condemn nation-states?
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
3/5 2:04am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
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Lack of honest, open elections.
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DeathStar1977
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
3/5 5:59am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
- Date Edited:
3/5 6:00am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DeathStar1977
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Well said, all around.
As most know, I'm a Jew, so here are my two cents.
So my questions to the Senate are...:
- Do you think somebody is an anti-semite when they think Israel should negotiate with Hamas?
Absolutely not. I think that somebody is wrong. But it's certainly not anti-semitic to think that.
How should I respond when people call me an anti-semite? What's the best course of action, that has the best effect?
Tell them to go *&%$# themselves.
Is there any escaping it, in striving for a just peace?
Hopefully yes.
And I wouldn't accuse you of being an anti-semite if you DIDN"T like Seinfeld either. But I would question your comedic taste.  
While I believe that most people (conservative to liberal) are not anti-semitic, the support of the religious right and the right-wing of the GOP is insidious, to say the least. They believe that Jews will burn in eternal hellfire, but that Israel must remain in Jewish hands. Some Jews, throwing out every good sense they may have due to paranoia regarding Israel, accept any support for Israel that they can get. Another reason the far right sucks up to Israel is money. Jews contribute a ton of money to political causes, vote in very high numbers and live in battleground states. A significant majority of Jews contribute and vote for Democratic causes, which clearly the far right wants to weaken and syphon off by any means necessary.
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yankee8255
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
3/5 6:40am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
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DeathStar1977 posted:
Well said, all around.
As most know, I'm a Jew, so here are my two cents.
So my questions to the Senate are...:
- Do you think somebody is an anti-semite when they think Israel should negotiate with Hamas?
Absolutely not. I think that somebody is wrong. But it's certainly not anti-semitic to think that.
How should I respond when people call me an anti-semite? What's the best course of action, that has the best effect?
Tell them to go *&%$# themselves.
Is there any escaping it, in striving for a just peace?
Hopefully yes.
And I wouldn't accuse you of being an anti-semite if you DIDN"T like Seinfeld either. But I would question your comedic taste.
While I believe that most people (conservative to liberal) are not anti-semitic, the support of the religious right and the right-wing of the GOP is insidious, to say the least. They believe that Jews will burn in eternal hellfire, but that Israel must remain in Jewish hands. Some Jews, throwing out every good sense they may have due to paranoia regarding Israel, accept any support for Israel that they can get. Another reason the far right sucks up to Israel is money. Jews contribute a ton of money to political causes, vote in very high numbers and live in battleground states. A significant majority of Jews contribute and vote for Democratic causes, which clearly the far right wants to weaken and syphon off by any means necessary.
A less rational, more intuitive explanation for why the treligiousl right is so supportive of Israel is that they'd like all US jews to move there.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
3/5 8:14am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
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DeathStar1977 posted:
Tell them to go *&%$# themselves.
Brief look into some bits of recent history of my country, the Netherlands - home of Anne Frank and all.
The wife of the former European Bank openly sided with Palestinians. She got her mugshot taken with Arafat. She used to be a force over here, but after zionist Jewish support groups labeled her an anti-semite, she lost most moral support. Even though she had other Jewish support groups siding with her.
Europeans are scared to side with people who have been labeled anti-semite by other people; moreso than in the US, I think; the war trauma. But this trauma seems to get exploited, by people who are so quick to slap this label around. How to combat that cleverly, without falling into the trap that the person above fell into, that's my main question.
Right now the same thing is happening with a former Dutch prime minister (Carter era), who had made the Palestinian cause his prime concern. He's already been called senile and anti-semite of the year, while all he preaches is human rights... What can be done?
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
3/5 8:26am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
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IIRC, haven't the Israeli soldiers killed civilians? And we're not calling them terrorists?
"Terrorism," as we've labeled it, is the only way Hamas has to fight back against Israel. They don't exactly have an army. So unless someone here can suggest another feasible way to fight back, I can't morally call what Hamas has done "terrorism."
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
3/5 8:30am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
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True (from a certain POV...) but that's not the point. Hamas has the destruction of Israel in their manifest, so it can be argued that whoever supports them is at least anti-zionist.
But that's not the same as anti-semite, and I'm actually not even sure what zionism is, precisely - whether it's a land for the Jews or all of the land (Kingdom of Israel and Judea) for Jews. The Wiki doesn't offer the definitive answer.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
3/5 8:34am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
- Date Edited:
3/5 8:35am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Lord_Vivec
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SuperWatto posted:
True (from a certain POV...) but that's not the point. Hamas has the destruction of Israel in their manifest, so it can be argued that whoever supports them is at least anti-zionist.
You know, a group of people unlawfully came into America and set up their own country, kicking us out of our homes, I, and the same people who pass around the label "anti-semite," would want the destruction of that country.
I don't know about you, but I don't fault them for wanting Israel destroyed. If put in the same place as the poor Palestinians, many people would want the same thing that the Palestinians want now.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
3/5 8:47am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
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For a minute there I thought you were American Indian, Lord_Vivec!
Whether Hamas' stance on this issue makes sense or not, it certainly isn't sensible, or workable. But I think that's still not the point. The point (at least, to me) is that they were elected in a way we (US + Europe) endorsed, and THAT'S why they should be allowed. As such, negotiating with Fatah (Abbas) is actually undemocratic.
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Vaderize03
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
3/5 8:51am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
- Date Edited:
3/5 8:53am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Vaderize03
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Lord Vivec, you're ignoring history. It was the arabs who started the fighting after the Balfour Declaration, which the jews living in Palestine were willing to accept.
Also, you're one-sided blaming of Israel demonstrates the mindset that leads to the status quo always being maintained. The insistence on assigning blame in this conflict is not only counter-productive, but it is also akin to trying to find the ends of a circle. It goes nowhere, and it gets nowhere.
I would fully support the right of Hamas to attack military targets in their lands and inside Israel, but their policy of hitting only civilians and they crying "foul!" when an Israeli response costs civilian lives is disingenuous, and frankly, political posturing. The fact that a significant portion of the world's nation-states play into this makes it even worse (I have to wonder at times whether the UN has a function other than passing anti-Israeli resolutions?).
The poster who said they support the right of Israel to exist but not "greater Israel" pretty much summed up my position. I don't think that anti-Israeli criticism is anti-semitic per se, but it depends on the context and whether or not it is balanced against the situation it is occuring in.
As far as "moving into a country and kicking people out of their homes", congratulations, you just described the United States, not to mention Mexico and numerous other countries throughout history.
Peace,
V-03
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DeathStar1977
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
3/5 8:58am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
- Date Edited:
3/5 8:59am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DeathStar1977
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SW
Well, Europe has a um, unique history in terms of dealing with anti-semitism.
Again, yes there are people very quick to use the label. But since Jews are a very small minority of the world population, and combined with the fact that they have been under constant attack in the land of Israel throughout history, I can understand a very protective mentality, so to speak.
The problem, of course, is where do people such as yourself fit in...people who are by no means anti-semitic but tired of all of the bloodshed and seek a peaceful solution.
Very well said V03. I was wondering when you'd show up.
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Lord_Vivec
Registered:
Apr '06
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Date Posted:
3/5 9:02am
Subject:
RE: anti-semitism
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Lord Vivec, you're ignoring history. It was the arabs who started the fighting after the Balfour Declaration, which the jews living in Palestine were willing to accept.
Palestinians aren't Arabs. And they did not want the Jews in their country
Also, you're one-sided blaming of Israel demonstrates the mindset that leads to the status quo always being maintained. The insistence on assigning blame in this conflict is not only counter-productive, but it is also akin to trying to find the ends of a circle. It goes nowhere, and it gets nowhere.
I'm not blaming Israel. I am blaming the Bush Admin and the Evangilicals for further complicating things everywhere. But I'll get off the Bush topic; this isn't the thread for it.
I would fully support the right of Hamas to attack military targets in their lands and inside Israel, but their policy of hitting only civilians and they crying "foul!" when an Israeli response costs civilian lives is disingenuous, and frankly, political posturing. The fact that a significant portion of the world's nation-states play into this makes it even worse (I have to wonder at times whether the UN has a function other than passing anti-Israeli resolutions?).
The poster who said they support the right of Israel to exist but not "greater Israel" pretty much summed up my position. I don't think that anti-Israeli criticism is anti-semitic per se, but it depends on the context and whether or not it is balanced against the situation it is occuring in.
Anti-Israeli criticism is never anti-semitic. Now calling for death is. But criticism isn't.
As far as "moving into a country and kicking people out of their homes", congratulations, you just described the United States, not to mention Mexico and numerous other countries throughout history.
I know. Don't think I haven't been critical of that either.
One thing people are forgetting. "Semite" means anyone from Middle-Eastern origin, though somehow it's been take to only mean Israelis. "Anti-Semite" actually means someone who is against Middle-Easter people in general.
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