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Topic:
Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
3/19 7:44am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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SuperWatto posted:
KnightRider posted:
The only people who should have guns are law enforcement/security and military personnel. The end.
Do guns kill people or do people kill people?
We had a heavy discussion here, almost a year ago... I said the exact same thing as KnightRider. I was sure of it, too. But Jediflyer actually made me see things differently. And it took me at least half a year to admit it to myself...
Yes that's right: a Senate poster, admitting another Senate poster made him change his stance.
Um, his name is KnightWriter, as in a knight who writes, not KnightRider, as in a knight who rides.
Kimball Kinnison
-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
3/19 8:11am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Kimball_Kinnison posted:
SuperWatto posted:
KnightRider posted:
The only people who should have guns are law enforcement/security and military personnel. The end.
Do guns kill people or do people kill people?
We had a heavy discussion here, almost a year ago... I said the exact same thing as KnightRider. I was sure of it, too. But Jediflyer actually made me see things differently. And it took me at least half a year to admit it to myself...
Yes that's right: a Senate poster, admitting another Senate poster made him change his stance.
Um, his name is KnightWriter, as in a knight who writes, not KnightRider, as in a knight who rides.
Kimball Kinnison
A graceful nod in your general direction, KK.
I sort of go by a bumper sticker I saw yesterday, "No, I'm pretty sure guns kill people." I believe in only law enforcement, security and military personnel having access to guns. I realize that's a radical position, and in no way expect anyone else to believe it.
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"May you live all the days of your life"
"There's a special place in Hell for women who don't support other women."--Sarah Palin
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
3/19 8:24am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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KnightWriter posted:
I sort of go by a bumper sticker I saw yesterday, "No, I'm pretty sure guns kill people." I believe in only law enforcement, security and military personnel having access to guns. I realize that's a radical position, and in no way expect anyone else to believe it.
Then I quite honestly hope and pray that you never find yourself in a position like I was in.
Yes, guns make it easier for one person to kill another, but that applies equally to the citizen using a gun for defense as it does to the criminal using the gun for crime. It might make it easier for a criminal to mug someone, but it can also make it easier for a woman like my 5'3" sister to fight off a rapist. Yes, the easy availability of guns can make it easier for a person to commit suicide, but so does the easy availability of rope, or bridges, or knives and razor blades.
What makes a gun any different from any other tool used for personal defense? There is no such thing as a purely defensive weapon, nor a purely offensive weapon (although some people are offended by all weapons  ). You can use anything to either attack or defend. Why, then, do guns deserve any special recognition?
Oh, and incidentally, while it is possible to kill someone with a gun (using it as a club), it's far more common to kill them with a bullet fired out of a gun.
Kimball Kinnison
-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
3/19 11:12am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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KK, of all people, I never woulda have expected you to start a post with the ever patronizing 'Um' for a mere typo!
KW, the thing that really drove it home for me was that, during the discussion, a 14-year old school kid killed a 16-year old school kid near where I live... With a knife.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
3/19 12:33pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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At the end of the day, policy arguments don't amount to a hill of beans. I've never seen convincing statistics that gun ownership is an effective self-defense tool. I've never seen convincing evidence that gun bans have reduced inner city crime or any other kind of crime.
Do the benefits of self-defense outweigh the cost of accidental gun deaths and crimes of passion (e.g. domestic spats or road rage that turns deadly because one of the party has a gun)? And no, if someone honks at you on the freeway and you shoot them dead, that should not be included in the self-defense statistics. And no, if you shoot your 6 year old son because you think he's a home intruder, that doesn't count as self-defense either.
The second amendment is an obtusely worded piece of legal nonsense with zero relevance for modern life. And yet, there it is. The chances of it being amended out of the constitution are zero.
So, again, policy doesn't matter. Whatever the supreme court decides: that's what matters. Why you strict textualists/originalists are bothering to make policy arguments about gun ownership is a mystery to me.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
3/19 12:51pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Jabbadabbado posted:
Whatever the supreme court decides: that's what matters.
Not to me.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
3/19 1:03pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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When it comes to supreme court precedent, what matters to you or me doesn't matter at all. That's the beauty of it.
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Mr44
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
3/19 1:21pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Well, there are certainly value to the arguments presented, and then looking at the resulting rationale behind the decision as well.
This decision won't come down until June, but even though I agree with the position, the "pro-gun" lawyers just appeared to make a better case.
The main flaw I saw with DC's position is that they could not give a really clear justification for the blanket ban. It came down to "Ummm, guns are bad M'oky," and I suppose that's a reason on its own if that's what one believes, but it doesn't really support to the position.
If DC doesn't want private handgun carry, concealed or otherwise, that's a different matter. Categories of people are already prohibited from purchasing firearms. (certain crimes, mental health issues, etc..) But I just can't see the logic to prohibiting an entire class of something based on an arbitrary standard.
But yeah, we'll just have to see how the SC goes.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
3/19 1:41pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
- Date Edited:
3/19 1:45pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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they could not give a really clear justification for the blanket ban.
The real question is, do they need to give a justification, and should the supreme court care?
Certainly it matters whether a law or regulation is effective. Does it serve a commendable policy goal? Does it solve the problem it was designed to solve? Does it do it in an efficient way? Would other policy approaches do a better job of solving the problem?
But do you want the supreme court looking into that? Do you want the supreme court to go on record with a test that says that a ban on guns is permissible if it meets certain basic requirements of effectiveness?
Weighing policy implies an expectation that the supreme court may set up a new test for the constitutionality of anti-gun legislation along the lines of content-based restrictions on free speech, e.g. a "narrowly tailored to serve a compelling state interest" kind of test? or "plausibly tailored to serve a legitimate state interest." "Vaguely intended to serve a hot-button political issue?"
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
3/19 3:57pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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If we're just going to go with bumper sticker rhetoric, then I'm tossing in my favourite:
"Ted Kennedy's car has killed more people than my gun"
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/20 12:28am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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KnightWriter posted:
The only people who should have guns are law enforcement/security and military personnel. The end.
And what happens if those personnel become corrupt or are under the orders of a corrupt government. We should all be capable of staging a revolution against the state if so necessary.
Melodramatic perhaps, but that's what that right is for.
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 Obama/Biden 2008 Let's bring back America. http://www.ryanvsdorkman.com Check out my blog: http://dorkmanscott.blogspot.com
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
3/20 11:24am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Great another thread about this.
I can't wait to see all the posts about how the NRA funds every pro-rights group, and the usually nonsense that has no place in the senate.
Get the facts.
Read the facts.
Read between the lines.
later
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Steven_R
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
3/20 3:31pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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KnightWriter posted:
The only people who should have guns are law enforcement/security and military personnel. The end.
The 200,000,000 people killed by their own governments during the 20th Century might disagree.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
3/20 3:33pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Force is strong in this one.
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TRACK THAT TRACK http://trackthattrack.blogspot.com frustrating you with sound
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Steven_R
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
3/20 3:58pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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DorkmanScott posted:
KnightWriter posted:
The only people who should have guns are law enforcement/security and military personnel. The end.
And what happens if those personnel become corrupt or are under the orders of a corrupt government. We should all be capable of staging a revolution against the state if so necessary.
Melodramatic perhaps, but that's what that right is for.
i don't think it's melodramatic. I think it's acknowledging governments can and will become tyranical unless they are kept in check. There hasn't been a despot in history that didn't disarm the people he was about to oppress.
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Rise O voices of Rhodesia,
God may we they bounty share,
Give us strength to face all danger,
And where challenge is, to dare.
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