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Topic:
Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
3/20 4:27pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Steven_R posted:
i don't think it's melodramatic. I think it's acknowledging governments can and will become tyranical unless they are kept in check. There hasn't been a despot in history that didn't disarm the people he was about to oppress.
So that's why there were no despots before guns were invented...
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
3/20 4:38pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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See, this is what I've always loved about the second amendment. It is a gold-plated, iron-clad guarantee of high-level debate.
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Steven_R
Registered:
Feb '08
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Date Posted:
3/20 4:44pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Jediflyer posted:
Steven_R posted:
i don't think it's melodramatic. I think it's acknowledging governments can and will become tyranical unless they are kept in check. There hasn't been a despot in history that didn't disarm the people he was about to oppress.
So that's why there were no despots before guns were invented...
Yes, and people were disarmed then as well and then subjected to tyranny. Scottish highlanders for example.
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Jediflyer
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
3/20 5:05pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
- Date Edited:
3/20 5:07pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jediflyer
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I'm pretty sure the Scottish Highlanders had arms and were unable to prevent their subjugation.
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Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it - Mark Twain
There are no dialogues, only intersecting monologues -Mark Twain
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
3/20 8:24pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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*just a quick to stir the pot
The Actual Fighting of the American Revolution didn't start until the "British"
came to disarm the "Colonists"
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
3/21 1:00am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Frankly with the power of modern military technology, a bunch of rifles and handguns aren't going to do crap. Technology has progressed to a point where the state is best situated to use that technology to control people. Open warfare against a modern nation state is suicide, hence the rise of terrorism. Which of course is only truly effective against democratic states. In most cases it only strengthens an authoritarian's hold on a society by providing a convenient boogieman.
So if we really wanted to provide a defense against our own government, it would be far more effective to distribute IEDs.
That said, I support the Second amendment. The only thing I haven't decided is if local governmental units like DC should be able to ban such weapons. I have never lived in a what you would consider a very large city, and enjoy shooting occasionally. I support reasonable restrictions, but worry that they might be used to gradually implement a total ban.
So while I don't think there is much we can do with guns to stop Hitler II, I do think that especially in rural areas they do provide an added level of civic security.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
3/21 1:44am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Never underestimate the benefits of a lone nut with a gun in the Hitler II scenario.
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LtNOWIS
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
3/21 2:26am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Espaldapalabras posted:
Frankly with the power of modern military technology, a bunch of rifles and handguns aren't going to do crap. Technology has progressed to a point where the state is best situated to use that technology to control people. Open warfare against a modern nation state is suicide, hence the rise of terrorism.
I'm pretty sure a gun-free nation like Japan would be easier to control than a nation like Afghanistan or Iraq, which were and are awash with Kalishnikovs. No, militia can't win in a straight gunfight, but that doesn't mean gunmen aren't a huge problem for any occupying force. Some lone wolf Iraqi snipers did a fair amount of damage in the early years of the war; for the United States, with it's widespread hunting and rifle ownership, that would be a much greater asset. Any scoped hunting rifle could be effective, but .50 caliber rounds would be useful against armored targets.
Iraq also shows the other foes poorly trained militias face; other militias. If Iraq goes into an all out civil war, the ability of militias to protect neighborhoods from other armed factions will prove to be significant. Owning a gun is useful anytime there's a breakdown in civil authority. Whether in a civil war, or in the wake of a hurricane or other natural disaster.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
3/21 6:03am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Iraq and Afganistan don't count because they don't have strong governments. There is a difference between an occupation force and an authoritarian domestic force. I'm not talking about breakdowns in society, I'm talking about small arms stopping Putin or Chavez or freeing Tibet. It just isn't going to happen. At most it is an annoyance to the totalitarian force.
What I was addressing was the idea that somehow guns protect our Bill of Rights. They don't because you would never get to a point where we didn't have freedom in this country unless it was popularly supported or at least the population was indifferent. And if you don't have popular support for your movement, there is no way small arms will be able to stand up against real military force.
I mean just look at Iraq. The place is a mess, but if all they had were AK-47s and sniper rifles, this war would have been over long ago. Explosives are what the insurrgents can use to meddle with US forces. And when it is a domestic situation it is much easier to create a climate of fear through secret police and informants, and now with information technology it will be possible to watch everything you do. Having a gun in the world of 1984 really wouldn't solve the problems of that society, at most you could take out a few tools, but there would always be more where they came from.
For it to matter, you would have to have the guy from Equilibrium. And somehow I don't think singlehandedly taking out an entire battalion is a realistic option.
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A vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user.
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We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
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LtNOWIS
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
3/21 6:35pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Espaldapalabras posted:
Iraq and Afganistan don't count because they don't have strong governments. There is a difference between an occupation force and an authoritarian domestic force. I'm not talking about breakdowns in society, I'm talking about small arms stopping Putin or Chavez or freeing Tibet. It just isn't going to happen. At most it is an annoyance to the totalitarian force.
That is a good point. I personally haven't said, "We can stop the US government from going all 1984 on us." But, a lot of other people have said that. And you're right, that's not a very realistic assessment of the situation.
I think foreign invasion or breakdown of government is a better rationale for widespread gun ownership, but that's not as popular a narrative.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/22 8:57pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Espy, do you really expect Tibet, TIBET?! to have the same philosophy regarding an armed citizenry as the U.S?
The U.S. is really the exception when it comes to a gun culture in a mature democratic state(Switzerland might be close).
I've never really completely understood it(as in I don't really indulge in it)but I support it.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
3/22 9:12pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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ShaneP posted:
Espy, do you really expect Tibet, TIBET?! to have the same philosophy regarding an armed citizenry as the U.S?
The U.S. is really the exception when it comes to a gun culture in a mature democratic state(Switzerland might be close).
I've never really completely understood it(as in I don't really indulge in it)but I support it.
Actually, I can explain a good bit of it.
Most of the other "mature democratic states" more or less developed in the time before guns became prevalent. At the time when those nations and communities were being cut out of the wilderness, other weapons were far more common (such as the sword or the bow).
The US, on the other hand, has gone through long periods of expansion in which civilian access to firearms has played a large role. Simply put, guns have had a large influence on US history, both before and after the Revolution. As a result, they are seen as something more important here.
Kimball Kinnison
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
3/23 6:48am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Don't forget that we didn't cut our civilization "out of the wilderness" either, we cut it out of civilizations that were already her. Granted, disease did more of the work than guns. Lurking behind the second amendment is a thirst for the blood of native Americans. But that's not a popular narrative either.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/23 2:09pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Oh come on. The second amendment has nothing to do with the state sponsored genocide of native american tribes.
One is an individual right. The other is a state sponsored relocation and subjugation of peoples grown swifter after the massive buildup and militarisation during the Civil War.
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Espaldapalabras
Registered:
Aug '05
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Date Posted:
3/23 7:35pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Are you trying to tell me it was the cowboys with guns that killed all the Indians? That is just silly. It was the government who had the guns and men to subjugate and kill of the already weakened native populations. One could easily argue that had the natives had more weapons the genocide wouldn't have happened.
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We should be eternally vigilant against attempts to check the expression of opinions that we loathe.
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