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Topic:
Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Mr44
Title: Modly McHume:
the Senate
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
3/23 10:52pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Well, it depends on which time you are referring to.
From the time the Bill of Rights was being debated in 1789 to the mid 1800's, Westward expansion was the product of individual explorers and/or private groups. The US Army simply didn't have enough manpower to cover the frontier. Of course, there were a few isolated incidents that involved various tribes and organized troops from the US government during this time, the "Seminole Wars," being one such example. For the most part though, the conflicts that happened during this initial period were between private groups and the tribes.
The Indian Removal Act was created as law in 1830, and after that, the government expanded its manpower in the frontier to cover the influx of settlers. Later on, the US government got involved as more and more people moved Westward and national interests took center stage. (The transcontinental telegraph and the first coast to coast railroad being major examples)
Of course, the Civil War shifted priorities, but after the war ended, the government again became involved, but there was less and less direct conflict until the Western expansion period concluded in 1890.
So, really it depends on which time period you're illustrating and a rough breakdown would look like this:
1789-1830: explorer period/private groups of settlers.
1830-1860: government resettlement
1860-1866: civil war/recovery
1866-1890: height of the Indian Wars, gradual end of frontier.
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
3/24 5:24am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
- Date Edited:
3/24 5:27am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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I'd say the bill of rights would have been more influenced by the popular history of colonization from 1620 to King Philip's War and up through the French Indian war.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
3/24 5:15pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Esp
Are you trying to tell me it was the cowboys with guns that killed all the Indians? That is just silly. It was the government who had the guns and men to subjugate and kill of[f] the already weakened native populations.
Didn't I say that? 
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DeathStar1977
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
3/27 4:24am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
- Date Edited:
3/27 4:25am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DeathStar1977
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Interesting article:
AK-47s turning up more often
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080327/ap_on_re_us/ak47s
Any thoughts? Mr44, since you work in law enforcement, perhaps you would like to weigh in.
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Mr44
Title: Modly McHume:
the Senate
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
3/28 11:17am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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I think you'll have to be more specific, really. But I'd certainly discuss any aspect.
I will say what the article doesn't point out is that its conclusion is based on the number of firearms traces, not actual use. This is an important distinction that the article left out, but makes all the difference.
See, a trace hit is logged when a weapons inquiry is made to the federal database because a weapon was found at a scene. It traces the gun's path from manufacturer, to wholesaler, to gun shop sold, etc.. It doesn't necessarily reflect that such a weapon was used, although of course, this is included as well.
For a non-violent example: Let's say someone was arrested for driving on a suspended driver's license, but they also had an unknown firearm in their vehicle. The person could then be served with an additional charge of UUW. (unlawful use of weapon) If the agency conducts a trace on the weapon, it results in a trace hit, even though the weapon wasn't actually used in any sort of criminal activity.
An increase of traces doesn't automatically equate to an increase of usage. AK style of weapons could be encountered more frequently than others simply because they're cheap.
For another analogy, the article could explore the idea that there's been a 20% increase in Honda Accords found at crime scenes. Does this mean that the Accord is simply a more popular model overall, or does it mean that criminals use Accords more often? It depends.
So called "assault weapons" are still only used in single digit percentage of crimes- slightly less than 1%- so their effect is negligible. Although this is also arbitrary, because "assault rifle" has no set meaning beyond the military.
Overall, firearms are only used in 29% of the most serious categories of reported crimes (sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated assault) vs a 70% rate of usage for knives and "other weapons." (interestingly, baseball bats and clubs/bludgeons are the top weapons used after knives)
Out of that firearm percentage, the NCIC report indicates that handguns are still the most frequent category:
60% handguns (both semi-auto and revolver)
22% rifles (the majority being rimfire type .22)
17% shotguns (The majority of those being "sawed off")
However, when a gun is used, the result is more deadly, so although firearms aren't used in the majority of crime, the ratio for homicide is 3 to 1.
Don't ask me what any of that means, I just put out a bunch of information based on your question. 
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
3/28 12:29pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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The way you describe it Mr44, the most likely reason for an increase in traces would be an increase in the prevalence of AK-47s. More of them around is a lot different than "more of them being used in crimes," but still alarming. If when a police officer knocks on the door an AK-47 is increasingly likely to be propped up in the umbrella stand, that would be noteworthy. For gun enthusiasts, it is perhaps a heart-warming tale of how America just keeps getting better, but still noteworthy.
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Mr44
Title: Modly McHume:
the Senate
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
3/28 1:16pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Yeah, I suppose. I just don't think it matters if one is comparing other firearms. Would it be more comforting if a shotgun was placed in that umbrella stand? A Ruger Ranch Rifle chambered in the same caliber? I'd say there's nothing wrong with having any kind of firearm in someone's home on its own.
If 99% of the AK-series are still used legally, then they're no more or no less deadly than any other example.
The one leap of faith I don't think should be made is any sense of "alarm." I just think think any article like this should be very specific to the point it is trying to illustrate. Without getting too technical- as an example, the article used the Nebraska mall shooting as an illustration. Except the shooter in that instance used an SKS, which is the older cousin to the AK-47. (the SKS was designed late in WWII) The way the article made it seem is that since both rifles use the same caliber, they must be the same. The SKS, in typical configuration, was authorized under the now expired "assault weapons" ban, so what exactly should be examined here? These are the same points of discussion that come up in every thread like this, of course.
Specifically relating to DS77's article, it just doesn't provide enough framework to draw any other comparisons on its own. Maybe it wasn't meant to, who knows?
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
3/28 2:10pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Nevertheless your point is taken. The stat used supports the title of the piece "AK-47s are turning up more in US," but the journalist implies a connection to more AK-47s being used in homicides, which is in fact not warranted by the statistic used. It's modestly sensationalistic.
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Mr44
Title: Modly McHume:
the Senate
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
3/28 2:20pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Of course, unless we're talking about Hillary Clinton, who I understand would be rightly concerned. But then again, she comes under AK-47 fire just about every day, so I think such concern is justified.
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
3/28 9:48pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
4/3 7:16pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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the article posted:
Since 1993, the year before the ban took affect, ATF has recorded a more than sevenfold increase in 7.62x39mm guns — which includes the original Russian-made AK-47 and a variety of copycats from around the world
This ALSO includes any and every other firearm chambered for that round also known as .308, which is common because it was once the preferred round of the United States armed forces and is still used in the 240G and S.A.W. variants.
the article posted:
Most of the AKs on American streets are semiautomatic, meaning they fire as fast as the gunman can squeeze the trigger.
Again a sales phrase that allows those who are ignorant to stay that way.
Those that are confused about these terms will read this and assume the worst. With fools on YouTube making clips of bumping their Glocks and rifles, and news media using burst fire sound bites, we have a lot of confused people.
Then there is the Hollywood factor. ANYONE can pick up a machine gun and fire full auto, accurately in a movie. Try and squeeze off a few rounds of .308 quickly and see how many end up on target.
other .308 Examples:
this Rifle can shoot is load of one bullet as fast as you can pull the trigger!
or this Rifle, after simply sliding the bolt and chambering a round you can shoot a bullet as fast as you can pull the trigger!
I saw a clip of Jon Stewart joking about "Hollow-Point, Armor Piercing Cop-Killer bullets!"
My question is which one?
Hollow Point, Armor Piercing , or Cop-Killer? Because all three are different.
Hollow Points "dump" their kinetic energy on impact, they are not armor piercing.
Armor Piercing bullets are usually "ball" rifle rounds, although some very small bullets that are crimped down on larger brass can sometimes penetrate body armor.
Cop-Killer bullets could mean anything, last time i saw a report, most police officer deaths were from .22LR because it is the caliber that is most common.
But no one seems to want to discuss the issue this way, it's all about assumption and strange conclusions.
The Grassroots Facebook Group Students for Concealed Carry on Campus, is made up of 20,000 College students across the United States, yet Peter Hamm, spokesperson for The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence has made claims that We know very clearly that they were organized and they are funded by the gun industry, by the companies that are selling the guns. This is not some spontaneous, grassroots organization."
This is an outright lie, yet I'm supposed to trust his "Campaign" and information?
(the SCCC press release can be found HERE)
So who's information CAN we trust?
According to this National Poll by the Washington Post of 707 randomly sampled adults, a strong majority of U.S. Citzens think the 2nd Amendment applies to State Militias, and support a handgun ban.
Yet according to This Gallup Poll of 1,016 adults found the exact opposite results.
Perhaps we are a nation that is split 50/50
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Mr44
Title: Modly McHume:
the Senate
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/3 11:04pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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This ALSO includes any and every other firearm chambered for that round also known as .308, which is common because it was once the preferred round of the United States armed forces and is still used in the 240G and S.A.W. variants.
Actually, the .308 cartridge that is also a popular hunting rifle caliber is 7.62mm x51mm (bullet diameter by case length)
The SKS/AK-47 variants use the 7.62mm Soviet round, which is 7.62mmx39mm. The AK cartridge is 12mm shorter and not interchangable. It has seen an increase in action target shooting and some hunting because it's thought of as an intermediate caliber. It's up from the higher velocity/smaller bullet of the .223 family, but not as large as the full size .308 rifle cartridge.
NATO caliber=7.62mmx51mm/.308
Old Warsaw Pact/Soviet caliber= 7.62mmx39mm
Originally, this was done by each side so that enemy troops couldn't pick up friendly ammo and use it against the opposite side. This practice has still carried over as the current NATO standard is 5.56mmx45mm, while the standard Russian caliber is 5.45mmx39mm.
But yeah, your other points still stand.
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
4/4 7:11am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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 WHOA!
i'm really glad you pointed that out, because I don't think I'll buy an AK now!
I'm planning on trying to only buy specific calibers so I can buy alot of ammunition and use it in all my firearms.
The last caliber I need to pick up is a hunting rifle.
I have been thinking a .308, I could start with a single shot rifle like the one I posted, then get a bolt action rifle, like the one pictured, and eventually a semi-auto..maybe a Panther™ LR-308.
But this is years down the road when I have a career and money.
Now i need to do my homework on Carboxylic Acids and such.
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Faces of Silas
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
4/7 5:13pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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How to appear to be pro-gun without looking like a warmonger
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
4/7 7:29pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Faces of Silas posted:
How to appear to be pro-gun without looking like a warmonger
last line of that article
"With guns, it sure looks like Obama is again telling voters what they want to hear, not what he plans on doing."
Politics as usual.
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