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Topic:
Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
4/24 12:05pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
- Date Edited:
4/24 12:11pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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Exactly. 91.5 does various local programming after 8pm on weekdays. I don't catch it often, but occasionally it's a useful source of news. My perspective on law enforcement in Chicago is very, very limited. As a criminal mastermind, my run ins with the law are few and far between.
Here's another "fact" from the same show, paraphrased.
Chicago police are under a lot of pressure to label crimes as "gang-related" even when the actual gang connection may be very vague and questionable. This is because the Chicago police dept. receives federal/state funding that depends on the gang-related crime statistics they produce.
In other words, a lot of crimes reported as "gang-related" in Chicago aren't.
Any truth in this?
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Mr44
Title: Modly McHume:
the Senate
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/24 12:26pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Sure. I'd say the pressure only exists up at the command level though. The regular tac officer and beat cop wouldn't care.
Just about all grant paperwork is like this though, if not all. DUI enforcement grants are another big source that has restrictions like this. The state gives out a lot of money for enforcement, but stipulates that the agency have a "minimum number of alcohol contacts" per hour. Well, "alcohol related contact" might just mean pulling over a car load of teenagers who were speeding and then finding beer in the car while they're underage.
That doesn't mean that the individual officer has to do anything about it. Issue out a ticket and have them pour the beer out. It still counts. What I mean is that there is no pressure that dictates any kind of specific result.
Does it represent creative paperwork to count this as an alcohol related contact under a DUI grant? Sure. Does it represent public safety to find a bunch of teenagers who are speeding around with beer in their car? Sure. Each agency would rather have the money than not.
Going back to the question, each gang contact is treated seriously. No officer is going to list anyone under a gang alert if no such reason exists, because it wastes everyone's time, and takes the focus from "real work." Having said that, if the administration wants to list a specific incident under a grant requirement, no one would know except for the grant and the administrator. To the officer on the street, it wouldn't matter.
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
4/24 12:42pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
- Date Edited:
4/24 12:43pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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Interesting. More evidence that "learning" something from the media is no substitute for knowing about it.
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
4/29 4:39pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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link
article posted:
After Grant fired three times Monday from the doorway of the King IGA grocery store, manager Marino Hernandez made a split-second decision not to fire back.
"I was afraid he was going to keep shooting, but I already had in mind that he wasn't a good shooter," Hernandez said Tuesday
Grant then drew a handgun. Assistant manager Roberto Espinal, behind a side counter, drew his gun. When Grant turned that way, Hernandez pulled his gun.
It was 5 p.m., and the store was jammed with customers, loading up for dinner on their way home, who hadn't counted on a three-way standoff.
Grant made the first move. He backed out of the store and started firing.
One bullet struck the front wall above the doorway, one hit the wall beside the door, and one imbedded in the ceiling over the cash registers.
One cashier, all of 16 years old, was on her first day on the job.
"A lot of chicken was left on shopping carts," Hernandez said. "Customers started screaming, going for the floor."
But, he said, "I'm a quick thinker. When I saw the first bullet hit high, right away I knew I was dealing with someone that was not a good shooter."
The two managers surrounded Grant as he backed into the parking lot, hid behind a car, and fired a fourth shot.
"He said, 'You calling the police?'" I said, 'Hell, yeah I am.'" Hernandez said. "I said, 'Put the gun down. Put the gun down. It's not worth it.' Then he said, 'You're going to beat me up if I put the gun down.' I said, 'I'm not going to beat you up.' "
Police then arrived and took Grant away. He was charged with attempted first-degree murder, shooting into an occupied dwelling, aggravated assault with a firearm and carrying a concealed firearm.
Some observations in relation to theories opposing CCW/ CHL made by members of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus
1. The two people with the CHL didn't get scared and shoot the other CHL.
2. The two people with the CHL didn't shoot randomly hitting unnarmed bystanders. They didn't shoot at all!
3. The two people with the CHL drew AFTER they were confronted with a firearm. And neither one was shot!
4. The Police didn't show up and shoot everyone with a gun. In fact no one was shot!
Yet another example of REAL WORLD application, showing the positive influence of CCW/CHL holders.
Last week was the empty holster protest on campuses across America. Yet none of the 3 Presidential candidates have
addressed this issue.
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
4/30 7:07am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
- Date Edited:
4/30 7:32am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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Here's the headline: "Gun Toting Rubes Get Lucky"
That's the dumbest news story I've ever read. How could anyone be sure the guy wouldn't shoot someone entirely by accident even if he didn't have the first clue about how to aim a handgun. The police would have shot him dead. Anyone with any sense would have shot him if they had the opportunity. This is why armed citizenry doing amateur law enforcement is a bad idea. Because people are stupid.
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LtNOWIS
Registered:
May '05
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Date Posted:
4/30 2:39pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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There are successful armed citizen stories every week. Heck, it's a daily segment on Cam & Company, the daily NRA News radio show. A quick check of their site brings up Would-be robber shot and killed in liquor store
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
4/30 5:11pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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I'd say there's a difference between citizens trying to do law enforcement and citizens protecting themselves.
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/1 10:40am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Jabbadabbado posted:
Here's the headline: "Gun Toting Rubes Get Lucky"
That's the dumbest news story I've ever read. How could anyone be sure the guy wouldn't
shoot someone entirely by accident even if he didn't have the first clue about how to
aim a handgun.(1)
The police would have shot him dead.(2)
Anyone with any sense would have shot him if they had the opportunity.(3)
This is why armed citizenry doing amateur law enforcement is a bad idea.
(4) Because people are stupid.(5)
(1) I wasn't there, but, it sounds like everyone else ran away and were ducking out of site.
(2) I believe a verbal warning comes first, if the perp is not actively shooting. But I am not an LEO
So I can not speak for them.
(3) Blood Lust? It sounds like he just wanted attention, those "on site" did not feel that
They needed to shoot him. I have no idea what I would have felt, I think I would have drawn
and given verbal warnings to put the gun down as well.
(4) What Law were they enforcing? This is the paradox of the situation, if they felt threatened why didn't
shoot? If they felt like there was no threat why did they need to draw? We have to Question what might
of happened if the two managers did not draw, would the perp, simply continued to shoot up the place
until the police arrived? Would he have rushed the site and shot many innocents? We can not tell, but it is Obvious the managers were trying to prevent a bad situation from turning into fatal situation, the results?
Overall it did turn out well
I think the actions were conducted well, next time I'm in Palm Beach, (which may be never again), I
would feel fine shopping at this IGA
(5) I agree, people are stupid. But we trust 16 year olds to opperate the consumer product that is responcible
for the most deaths. If you can not trust the 3% of the population, that have been tested, i.d.-ed, checked, and
given a full detail of the law, then WHO can you trust? There is no substitute for having something On-site, to use
as a self-defense tool. No camera, no sign, no siren, nothing short of some sort of physical device that will stop a perp.
Yes it could be a taser, or a OS device, etc.
It's your perception that they were stupid.
It's my perception that your assessment is harsh, careless, and possibly showing blood lust.
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
5/1 11:51am
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Nice job with the footnotes.
Back to the posse: it was a brave, foolish thing to do. They're lucky they're still alive. While it's nice to have an anecdote about someone with a gun refraining from firing it, I'm not sure this teaches any relevant lessons about much of anything at all.
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/3 12:24pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Whether one considers it appropriate or foolish is a matter of perception. I wasn't there so I can not judge the situation. It sounds like everyone re-acted as they should have.
This story is an example of defusing a bad situation.
Time and time again the "Anti-" crowd tells us that Firearms can onlycause escalation.
This is yet another example, of no-one shot, no-one killed.
But when someone spouts off abstract stats of
"you are XX times more likely to kill yourself or an acquaintance with a firearm than kill a criminal" those stats don't include times when someone doesn't die.
Those studies ignore when someone simply draws and says "leave me alone","get out of my house", or "We're out of oxycontin 40"
and the perp runs away.
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I don't like the donkeys and I don't like the Elephants http://www.lp.org "Some people never have anything except ideas Go Do it! Lucky Numbers 3, 11, 21, 31, 41, 43"
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Odd_Bloke
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/3 2:42pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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LtNOWIS posted:
There are successful armed citizen stories every week. Heck, it's a daily segment on Cam & Company, the daily NRA News radio show. A quick check of their site brings up Would-be robber shot and killed in liquor store
Is it possible, and I don't want to sound cynical here, that the National Rifle Association might have something to gain from portraying gun ownership in a positive light? That they might, in some sense, benefit from ignoring those armed citizen stories which were, perhaps, less than successful?
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/3 2:54pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Well, if you're going to highlight the need for airbags in all cars, you point out when airbags did make a difference, not all the times where they didn't.
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Odd_Bloke
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/3 3:31pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Well, if you're going to highlight the need for airbags in all cars, you point out when airbags did make a difference, not all the times where they didn't.
But if airbags regularly caused gaping holes to appear in the skulls of those they were meant to benefit, and those around them who chose not to use airbags at all, you should probably be thinking twice about whether any such need exists.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/3 3:36pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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Well, airbags have been known to cause fatalities. And this is something that you're mandated to have in new cars so one can't CHOOSE to not use them.
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Odd_Bloke
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
5/3 4:26pm
Subject:
RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
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One can choose not to use airbags by forgoing the use of a car. Even pedestrians would be affected by our analogous airbags.
I also think it would be fair to say that airbags cause less fatalities in total, with far more people regularly driving a car than carrying a gun.
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