Author Topic: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
Mr44 
Registered: May '02
Date Posted: 6/26 1:19pm Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
I think it means that we'll see current firearms legislation get "locked in," because there's not much more that can be added and still remain compliant with Constitutional protection.

The most effective piece of firearms law was 1968's federal gun control act. It balanced both the needs of regulation and ownership, and was in line with similar decisions. (free speech is protected, but can't yell fire and cause a panic, etc..)

It was the 1968 law that codified restrictions against felons, certain categories of mental illness, illegal aliens, dishonorably discharged veterans, etc.. It also regulated interstate transactions.

Most other firearms restrictions since then have been bloated examples of inefficiency, culminating with 1993's prohibition on guns based on how they look, not on how they function. (The 1993 law sunsetted in 2003 and wasn't renewed.)

I can't see this decision changing any state law that is based on the 1968 standards, and we'll have to see about the others.

 

-----signature-----
Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
..............................................................
Peter Shoomaker
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Vortigern99 
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered: Nov '00
6129_Anakin Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/26 1:35pm Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
When I vote I tend to vote Democractic, but this is one case where I tend to agree with the Right. Gun ownership is and should be a fundamental right. In general I'm not one to parrot cliched sayings, but "When guns are criminalized, only criminals will have guns" is an apt truism here.

 

-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Jabbadabbado 
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 6/26 3:03pm Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you. - Date Edited: 6/26 3:23pm (3 edits total) Edited By: Jabbadabbado
The value of this opinion is that it provides clarity.

The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.

Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons.

and

The handgun ban and the trigger-lock requirement (as applied to self-defense) violate the Second Amendment. The District’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounts to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly choose for the lawful purpose of self-defense. Under any of the standards of scrutiny the Court has applied to enumerated constitutional rights, this prohibition—in the place where the importance of the lawful defense of self, family, and property is most acute—would fail constitutional muster. Similarly, the requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock makes it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense and is hence unconstitutional.

My only concern about the ruling is the implication that the ability to use a gun in self defense might outweigh other compelling interests such as child safety (e.g. trigger lock/gun safe requirements) when a child is in the house with a permitted gun. I'm not sure that issue is fully settled here.

EDIT: Scalia does note the following: Nothing about those fire-safety laws undermines our analysis; they do not remotely burden the right of selfdefense as much as an absolute ban on handguns. Nor, correspondingly, does our analysis suggest the invalidity of laws regulating the storage of firearms to prevent accidents.

So, as I was saying, I'm not sure that issue is fully settled here.



 

-----signature-----
Malthusian Doomsday Quack
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Mr44 
Registered: May '02
Date Posted: 6/26 3:15pm Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
I think you are absolutely correct with both your points. And on a broader note, it's why I'm more and more impressed with the Roberts Court.

However, I don't think related laws that are linked to firearm negligence aren't effected. Again, Illinois is a state that has a law that applies to gun owners who disregard safety as it relates to children, but the result is what is addressed by the law.

In DC's case, it said "all ____ must be kept locked up or disassembled, regardless of situation or purpose." There was no specific result being addressed.

It was one of the points that really concerned the SC if you read the transcripts.

 

-----signature-----
Don’t confuse enthusiasm with capability.
..............................................................
Peter Shoomaker
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Jabbadabbado 
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 6/26 3:26pm Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you. - Date Edited: 6/26 3:37pm (2 edits total) Edited By: Jabbadabbado
I just finished reading the opinion in full, and I think you're right, and for once I don't completely disagree with Scalia. For me, as a proponent of gun restrictions, it's very liberating not to have to make, ever again, the argument that the "well regulated militia" bit is critical to understanding the meaning of the text. Scalia settled the hell out of that question.

Scalia basically rewrote the second amendment to read:

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms for self defense shall not be infringed."

 

-----signature-----
Malthusian Doomsday Quack
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
LtNOWIS 
Registered: May '05
16494_Clone Assault
Date Posted: 6/27 12:11am Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
Predictable gnashing of teeth from the left. In the Washington Post, 2 columnists and the editorial board decried and lamented the decision. But I gotta admire Eugene Robinson's intellectual honesty in basically saying, "Well, I don't like guns, and we need to control them. But 'collective right?' In the Bill of Rights? Come on."

 

-----signature-----
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Jabbadabbado 
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 6/27 7:18am Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you. - Date Edited: 6/27 7:28am (4 edits total) Edited By: Jabbadabbado
Intellectual honesty?

Scalia undertook a wholesale, radical redrafting of the second amendment.

The number of pages of contortion it took Scalia to erase the words "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State" from the second amendment impressed me deeply with its almost cynical disregard for the intelligence of the reader.

If you want to read a solid example of a common sense, plain text argument with persuasive reference to history, common law and framer's intent, you don't have to look any farther than the Stevens dissent. I'm referring here only to the section interpreting the meaning and significance of the first clause of the second amendment. Other parts of the Stevens dissent struck me as unconvincing and an unnecessary stretch.

At the end of the day though, the Stevens dissent is only a dissent, and the Scalia opinion is constitutional law.

Parts of the Scalia opinion are better than others, and I think it will do the trick of clarifying second amendment law (even if I deeply disagree with it) after the dozens of unleashed challenges to gun restrictions pass through the legal system.

Notice that I am not whining about the court usurping its authority. Scalia took a pen and rewrote the Bill of Rights. But that's what precedent is for. Supreme Court majority opinions are the annotated constitution, where the annotation is more legally binding than the text itself.

 

-----signature-----
Malthusian Doomsday Quack
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
rogue_wookiee 
Registered: Apr '04
7942_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 6/27 8:13am Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you. - Date Edited: 6/27 8:16am (1 edits total) Edited By: rogue_wookiee
Jabbadabbado posted:
I just finished reading the opinion in full, and I think you're right, and for once I don't completely disagree with Scalia. For me, as a proponent of gun restrictions, it's very liberating not to have to make, ever again, the argument that the "well regulated militia" bit is critical to understanding the meaning of the text. Scalia settled the hell out of that question.

Scalia basically rewrote the second amendment to read:

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms for self defense shall not be infringed."


Out of curiousity how are you defining militia?

The Constitution was written by some of the same men who wrote the Declaration of Independence and that implies that the second amendment was foresight into their own government becoming corrupt and allowing the people the right to keep weaponry to defend themselves from unjustice in the exact same way that they had just done against England.

Declaration of Independence posted:
all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government


You have to understand that our Founding Fathers were not idiots. They were not followers of Thomas Hobbes and they did not trust governments with power. Given the current state of affairs with civil rights, the Patriot Act, warrentless wiretapping, etc. I think everyone can see their wisdom regardless of political views.

I heartily believe, like most, that peaceful means should be exhausted first, but what if that fails? We don't know what the future holds. There is always a possibility that the world, specifically the U.S. government, will go downhill and we will begin to see this errosion of our liberties become outright dystopia. On that day do you want to define militia as our National Guard and other government tools? Or would you rather that the people be armed and able to defend themselves from injustice? I hope and pray that day never comes, but in the case that it did Jefferson and others had the foresight to make it legal that we be able to defend ourselves. Obviously technology has changed over the last 200 years, which brings up other issues of what they meant by "arms". But let us save that for another time. "Well regulated" is another question to be raised at some point.

On the issue of self-defense, I'm curious how that is so different from militia. The Declaration of Independence says that we have the "unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Given the context of the time and the fact that a militia is something designed to defend the people against injustice from the state, how is injustice from other individuals that different? You may counter me by pointing out that the Declaration also states "That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed". To which I point your attention to the latter portion of the quote. "Just powers from the consent of the governed". Regardless of views on whether a law is just, one must note that the government does not have the consent of their governed people. If they did they would be able to put forth a new amendment disallowing guns for certain purposes just as they had the support to ban liquor. But they don't have the support of the people and cannot gain the support for such an amendment. The people have not given up their right to defend themselves and the government cannot legally take it because nobody understands exactly what is meant by the 2nd Amendment. We cannot ask Jefferson, so in my honest opinion it should stand as it is unless congress gains the support for a new amendment that is more clear on the issue. The Supreme Court did not rewrite anything their interpretation was as valid as the one in Roe vs Wade or any other number of cases where the law is rather unclearly written.

 

-----signature-----
“You’re probably the biggest taxer in the country, even bigger than the Congress,”
- Ron Paul on the Federal Reserve.
Be aware of inflation and how it affects our daily life.
http://mises.org/story/2914
-What You Should Know About Inflation
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
KnightWriter 
Title:
Administrator Emeritus

Registered: Nov '01
39907_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 6/27 8:14am Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you. - Date Edited: 6/27 8:15am (1 edits total) Edited By: KnightWriter
As I just said elsewhere, had Kerry won in 2004, this would probably be a very sad day for right wingers, and the occasion of a third straight defeat in the Court.

The Constitution was written by some of the same men who wrote the Declaration of Independence and that implies that the second amendment was foresight into their own government becoming corrupt and allowing the people the right to keep weaponry to defend themselves from unjustice in the exact same way that they had just done against England.


Call me revisionist, but I don't think England had nuclear weapons, tanks or machine guns as part of its arsenal. If the government wanted to take over in a forceful way, no amount of weaponry from ordinary citizens could do a thing to stand in its way.

 

-----signature-----
"May you live all the days of your life"
"The Obama Car will be fueled by FISA amendments and emit civil liberties for exhaust." A-B
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Kimball_Kinnison 
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 6/27 8:18am Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
Jabbadabbado posted:
Intellectual honesty?

Scalia undertook a wholesale, radical redrafting of the second amendment.

The number of pages of contortion it took Scalia to erase the words "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State" from the second amendment impressed me deeply with its almost cynical disregard for the intelligence of the reader.

If you want to read a solid example of a common sense, plain text argument with persuasive reference to history, common law and framer's intent, you don't have to look any farther than the Stevens dissent. I'm referring here only to the section interpreting the meaning and significance of the first clause of the second amendment. Other parts of the Stevens dissent struck me as unconvincing and an unnecessary stretch.
The problem here is that, as Scalia actually pointed out in the ruling (yes, I've read it in full), he wasn't erasing the first part of the Amendment.

The primary question before the court (once you cut through everything) was whether or not the right to keep and bear arms is a collective right, or an individual one. In that, the key portion of the Amendment is the latter half - specifying it as a right of the People. Scalia didn't ignore the first half of the Amendment. In fact, he spends about 5-6 pages of the ruling discussing the first part of the Amendment and its relationship to the individual right. Yes, he spent longer (about 17 pages) on the second half of the Amendment, but that was because that is where the primary question rested (collective v. individual right).

In fact, if you want a breakdown of the ruling, it was about as follows:
4 pages introduction/review of the background of the case itself
17 pages on the "Operative Clause"
6 pages on the "Prefatory Clause"
4 pages responding to criticisms from the dissents about the interpretation of the Amendment
15 pages reviewing interpretations of the Amendment since it was passed
9 pages addressing the relationship between those interpretations and the one set forth in this ruling
9 pages applying the above interpretations to the specific laws in question, and issuing the final ruling.

In the end, though, the key to this ruling was the phrase "the right of the People". Based upon the context (and especially the other uses of that phrase withing the Constitution itself), the individual rights view had a far more solid case (as many liberal, anti-gun commentators have conceded in various pieces since the ruling was issued yesterday). Once it was established that it is an individual right, as opposed to a collective one, even if you concede a need for it to be tied to a militia, the DC laws would still have been struck down.

As Scalia stated in the ruling:
DC v. Heller posted:
Few laws in the history of our Nation have come close to the severe restriction of the District’s handgun ban. And some of those few have been struck down. In Nunn v. State, the Georgia Supreme Court struck down a prohibition on carrying pistols openly (even though it upheld a prohibition on carrying concealed weapons). See 1 Ga., at 251. In Andrews v. State, the Tennessee Supreme Court likewise held that a statute that forbade openly carrying a pistol “publicly or privately, without regard to time or place, or circumstances,” 50 Tenn., at 187, violated the state constitutional provision (which the court equated with the Second Amendment). That was so even though the statute did not restrict the carrying of long guns. Ibid. See also State v. Reid, 1 Ala. 612, 616–617 (1840) (“A statute which, under the pretence of regulating, amounts to a destruction of the right, or which requires arms to be so borne as to render them wholly useless for the purpose of defence, would be clearly unconstitutional”).
Once the individual right was established, the complete, blanket restrictions that would make an effective destruction of the individual right were clearly unsupportable, and therefore struck down.

Kimball Kinnison

 

-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
rogue_wookiee 
Registered: Apr '04
7942_Chewbacca
Date Posted: 6/27 8:27am Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you. - Date Edited: 6/27 8:28am (1 edits total) Edited By: rogue_wookiee
KnightWriter posted:
Call me revisionist, but I don't think England had nuclear weapons, tanks or machine guns as part of its arsenal. If the government wanted to take over in a forceful way, no amount of weaponry from ordinary citizens could do a thing to stand in its way.


A solid point.

Hence why a discussion of the defintion of "arms" would be great for this thread. wink

 

-----signature-----
“You’re probably the biggest taxer in the country, even bigger than the Congress,”
- Ron Paul on the Federal Reserve.
Be aware of inflation and how it affects our daily life.
http://mises.org/story/2914
-What You Should Know About Inflation
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Jabbadabbado 
Registered: Mar '99
7388_Throne Room
Date Posted: 6/27 8:36am Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you. - Date Edited: 6/27 9:17am (1 edits total) Edited By: Jabbadabbado
The problem here is that, as Scalia actually pointed out in the ruling (yes, I've read it in full), he wasn't erasing the first part of the Amendment.

He unequivocally, absolutely erased the first clause. For all intents and purposes, the second amendment now reads something on the order of:

"The right of the individual to keep and bear arms for the purpose of hunting and self defense shall not be infringed."

Stevens makes a much more convincing argument about the scope, meaning and interpretation of the first clause of the second amendment. You're going to have decades of legal scholarship on this opinion, and I can pretty much guarantee you that the Stevens dissent, as it pertains to the first clause of the second amendment, will be widely recognized as a far better work of persuasive argument and legal scholarship than the comparable 6 pages of Scalia opinion.

Once it was established that it is an individual right, as opposed to a collective one, even if you concede a need for it to be tied to a militia, the DC laws would still have been struck down.

This does not follow at all. An individual right to keep and bear arms would not necessarily encompass a right to keep and bear hand guns, although now of course it unequivocally does. My problem with Scalia's argument on this matter:

It is enough to note, as we have observed, that the American people have considered the handgun to be the quintessential self-defense weapon.

is that it unnecessarily elevates popular preference for style of weapon to the level of protected individual right.

I see your point that once the Supreme Court rewrote the second amendment to encompass an individual right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self defense, gun locks, gun safes, disassembly requirements, unloaded requirements, etc., hamper the pursuit of that right and will inevitably be struck down, absent other compelling concerns like accident prevention.

 

-----signature-----
Malthusian Doomsday Quack
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
Kimball_Kinnison 
Registered: Oct '01
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 6/27 8:39am Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
KnightWriter posted:
Call me revisionist, but I don't think England had nuclear weapons, tanks or machine guns as part of its arsenal. If the government wanted to take over in a forceful way, no amount of weaponry from ordinary citizens could do a thing to stand in its way.
The US has nuclear weapons, tanks, and machine guns. How has that helped in Iraq or Afghanistan? How did that help in Vietnam, or help the Russians in Afghanistan?

It completely boggles my mind that some of the same people who have claimed that there is no way that the US Army can pacify Iraq, because the populous is against our presence, can turn around and say that there is no way that the populous in the US could stand up to that same US Army. Which is it? Can a populous armed with small arms effectively oppose a trained and well-equipped military, or not?

And that's not even looking at other factors. For example, it is fairly easy to convert a legally-owned, semi-automatic AK-47 (which can be bought for about $350, new) into a full-auto version using a dremel tool and a little know-how. The same thing can be done with other semi-automatic firearms (depending on the specific model and manufacturer). That, at least, nullifies the "machine gun" argument.

And it also doesn't even consider whether the US military would obey such an order to fire on the US populous. The last time we had a civil war, parts of the military joined in rebellion against the government, and took quite a bit of equipment with them. It would be difficult for the government to put down a real uprising using the military, because anything that would gather enough levels of support to require the military would likely wind up fracturing the military as well.

And bringing up nuclear weapons doesn't help your case. The US government isn't going to use nuclear weapons, even in a theoretical civil war. They would only be useful against a population center, and then it would be hitting far too many of your own supporters as well (not to mention bringing foreign support in on the opposing side).

Kimball Kinnison

 

-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
KnightWriter 
Title:
Administrator Emeritus

Registered: Nov '01
39907_Obi-Wan Kenobi
Date Posted: 6/27 8:53am Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
Try not to overthink things so much, Richard. I think we'd all be better off.

 

-----signature-----
"May you live all the days of your life"
"The Obama Car will be fueled by FISA amendments and emit civil liberties for exhaust." A-B
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History
DeathStar1977 
Registered: Jan '03
7850_Luke Skywalker
Date Posted: 6/27 9:15am Subject: RE: Oh second amendment strife, how I've missed you.
KK

The US has nuclear weapons, tanks, and machine guns. How has that helped in Iraq or Afghanistan? How did that help in Vietnam, or help the Russians in Afghanistan?

Including the civil war...millions of people were killed, so I don't think it really turned out good for anyone.

But as I'm sure you'd agree, that's besides the point.

I agree with the result, but as a good citizen, I should probably read the ruling.

 

-----signature-----
Post Reply | Quote Reply | Active Topic Notification | Private Message | Post History