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Topic:
An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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ShrunkenJedi
Registered:
Apr '03
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Date Posted:
4/22 12:46pm
Subject:
An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
4/22 12:58pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ShrunkenJedi
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'Female is what I am, not what I do.'
Now here's an interesting topic I can't recall being discussed here, although I do recall some gender issues being touched upon. I'm not talking about sexuality-- a lesbian woman or a gay man can be either butch or femme. Nor am I really talking about transvestitism, since I'm not talking about a person feeling they're born the wrong sex-- although that can be part of the conversation
I was watching Hackers recently-- Angelina Jolie plays an elite (leet, 1337...) girl hacker who dresses androgynously and has a feminist mom, but she's in no way rejecting being a woman. And reading a thread with a comic that (jokingly) implied only guys could open jars. This, among other things don't get me wrong, got me thinking... I'm comfortable being a girl, but I wear jeans and t-shirts, like and am comfortable with technology, somehow manage to open my own jars and bottles despite pitiful arm strength. Don't like to ask directions. When every other girl on campus is breaking out sundresses and cute little shoes, I'm in a T-shirt and light jeans. And, like the character in Hackers, I was raised by a strong, very successful, single mom. Like I say in the opening quote-- female is just what I am, not what I do. I feel no need whatsoever to emphasize it. A need to look good, yes. I wear some makeup, wear form fitting clothes. Sometimes androgynous fashion seems to be even sexier than overtly feminine/macho fashion. Witness: David Bowie or Johnny Depp in makeup, Liza Minelli in Cabaret... Angelina Jolie as Kate Libby in Hackers. All portrayed as oozing sexuality. Perhaps tied to the innate transgressive aspect of it? Or maybe not. A need to look feminine? Not so much. I know plenty of guys who are just guys, they're not macho but they're not feminine. And I know plenty of macho guys and girly-girls.
There are a few factors I can think of that could influence people one way or another.
1. Role Models. Strong female or non-macho male role models seem to promote comfort with bending gender norms and perhaps with a certain amount of androgyny. More exposure to the idea that women and men don't always act stereotypically male and female.
2. Upbringing. If you were brought up to believe that women had certain roles and men had certain roles, you're probably going to stick to traditional gender roles. Or rebel against them, depending on how much of a rebellious streak you have. Not to mention the prevailing clothing styles of your peers, what stage of life you're in and what you're exposed to (even I played with barbies and dolls when I was little... I also had Ninja Turtles action figures, though) etc.
3. Interests and abilities. If you're an athletic girl who throws a football as well as the guys, or a guy who finds he likes to ballet dance, that could influence how you see yourself and how comfortable you are with the other gender. I like logic, science, computers/technology, and popular science fiction.
I've also noticed that the more macho/femme the person is, the more they'll go for an oppositely femme/macho partner.
So, what do you think? Is androgyny a good thing? Bad? Neutral? What do you think are influencing factors-- do you agree or disagree with my initial assessment or have more to add? Anecdotes?
TL, DR: Girly-girls, macho men, tomboys, metrosexuals... people express their masculinity or femininity in wildly different ways. What do you think about it, what's your take?
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
4/22 1:41pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
4/22 1:42pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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Everyone's different. Everyone wants to be different and everyone wants to fit in. A non conformist is often just someone who is desperate to fit into a different group than yours. Young people tend to be more angst-ridden about identity than older people. Gender identity may or may not be part of that. But definitely part of the wisdom of getting older is getting more comfortable in your own skin.
One of the beautiful things about being young is that you can try on different identities like suits of clothing. Eventually, however, you'll find a suit you want to wear basically all the time, even to the point that people will wish you'd take it off and get it dry cleaned every once in a while.
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
4/22 1:43pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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ShrunkenJedi posted:
So, what do you think? Is androgyny a good thing? Bad? Neutral? What do you think are influencing factors-- do you agree or disagree with my initial assessment or have more to add? Anecdotes?
TL, DR: Girly-girls, macho men, tomboys, metrosexuals... people express their masculinity or femininity in wildly different ways. What do you think about it, what's your take?
I think androgyny is a good thing, in the sense that I think it's good that people can feel comfortable expressing themselves as they feel is appropriate instead of trying to fit a certain role or idea for who they "should" be. I also think it leads to a more natural and more accurate perception of how gender is defined and perceived. And while you say that you're not talking about sexuality, I think that is a part of it. I think of sexuality as being a wide spectrum that people find themselves in without a specific line separating two different "kinds." Naturally then, you wouldn't be able to define specific categories that everyone is going to neatly fall in to.
I might also add "Acceptance" to your list of factors, even though it is really based on the factors you already listed. For various reasons, people desire acceptance from different groups. As a means of gaining that acceptance, people sometimes emphasize certain aspects or features of themselves that they may not necessarily have done before. Eventually those things become a part of a person's self-concept, such that the lines between what one is and what one wants to be becomes so blurred that they become one and the same.
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Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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ShrunkenJedi
Registered:
Apr '03
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Date Posted:
4/22 2:08pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
4/22 2:14pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ShrunkenJedi
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Jabbadabbado: Well, yeah... I agree, can definitely be about fitting in. Is it always, though? Good points.
king_alvarez: Yes, I agree, androgyny can definitely be about expressing yourself as you feel is appropriate, not who you think you 'should' be! And acceptance, yes. It seems to me that gender identity and sexuality can be linked in some ways, but one does not necessarily define the other. What do you think?
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king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
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Date Posted:
4/22 2:23pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
4/22 2:26pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
king_alvarez
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ShrunkenJedi posted:
It seems to me that gender identity and sexuality can be linked in some ways, but one does not necessarily define the other. What do you think?
I'll have to spend some time thinking about this. My initial reaction is that often times people view gender and sexuality as essentially being synonymous with each other, which they're obviously not. I guess that I view them both as being independent spectrums that often times, but not always, overlap with each other. (I'm trying to think of a color spectrum analogy, but I'm not sure it works) Complicating matters is that we as a society have specific constructs for what those roles are supposed to entail, and when people don't fit those constructs, they are forced to either accept who they are or try to change to fit the mold, and it's not always easy to make that choice.
ShrunkenJedi posted:
I was watching Hackers recently-- Angelina Jolie plays an elite (leet, 1337...) girl hacker who dresses androgynously and has a feminist mom, but she's in no way rejecting being a woman.
I thought she perfectly exuded sexuality and femininity in that movie. I think that may be my favorite role of her's that she's been in.
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Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
4/22 2:24pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
4/22 2:26pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Princess_Tina
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ShrunkenJedi,
I think you may be confusing gender identity and gender expression/gender roles. Your sense of gender identity determines whether or not your inner sense of self matches your biological sex. Everything else is gender expression - how butch, femme, masculine, andro, etc. you like to be as part of your expression of gender.
Jabbadabbado posted:
A non conformist is often just someone who is desperate to fit into a different group than yours.
Or maybe we just don't want to fit into any group, period. Or maybe we wish there weren't any groups at all? Or that people wouldn't treat each other differently at all based on our gender expression?
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ShrunkenJedi
Registered:
Apr '03
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Date Posted:
4/22 2:59pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
4/22 4:10pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ShrunkenJedi
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king_alvarez posted:
I thought she perfectly exuded sexuality and femininity in that movie. I think that may be my favorite role of her's that she's been in.
Indeed, perfectly feminine and very sexual, and a great performance. I noticed, though, that in dvd notes they described her clothing and haircut as androgynous-- and I realized they were right. Not to mention that the way she acts is typically masculine in almost every way. That's why I brought it up.
Princess_Tina posted:
ShrunkenJedi,
I think you may be confusing gender identity and gender expression/gender roles. Your sense of gender identity determines whether or not your inner sense of self matches your biological sex. Everything else is gender expression - how butch, femme, masculine, andro, etc. you like to be as part of your expression of gender.
You may be right, I'm not a master of gender-theory literature by any means...
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
4/24 11:24am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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Or maybe we just don't want to fit into any group, period. Or maybe we wish there weren't any groups at all? Or that people wouldn't treat each other differently at all based on our gender expression?
In general people want to be liked, if not by everyone than by a particular subset of individuals. Everyone has a peer group of some kind unless they are complete sociopaths.
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
4/24 3:12pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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Jabbadabbado posted:
Or maybe we just don't want to fit into any group, period. Or maybe we wish there weren't any groups at all? Or that people wouldn't treat each other differently at all based on our gender expression?
In general people want to be liked, if not by everyone than by a particular subset of individuals. Everyone has a peer group of some kind unless they are complete sociopaths.
With all due respect, I think you have it all wrong Jabba. 
Not wanting to be a part of any group in terms of gender expression doesn't meant we don't want to be liked. 
What makes you think that I should want to fit in with a stereotype of gender expression in order to be liked? On the contrary, perhaps it would be best if outer appearances simply weren't a factor in this at all - if people could more easily look past the surface of a person, and judge the person based on who they really are, not what they may or may not look like.
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DarthBoba
Registered:
Jun '00
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Date Posted:
4/24 4:31pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying. He's not saying you in particular. He's saying people in general.
God knows we're probably all weirdos here. 
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
4/24 4:35pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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DarthBoba posted:
I think you're misinterpreting what he's saying. He's not saying you in particular. He's saying people in general.
If you followed the discussion between Jabba and I, you'd see it started with Jabba saying something along the lines of all nonconformists supposedly wanting to fit in to a "different group" or something like that. So I think it's reasonable he is still talking about "nonconformists" on the gender spectrum.
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Eleventh_Guard
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
4/24 5:20pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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ShrunkenJedi posted:
There are a few factors I can think of that could influence people one way or another.
1. Role Models. Strong female or non-macho male role models seem to promote comfort with bending gender norms and perhaps with a certain amount of androgyny. More exposure to the idea that women and men don't always act stereotypically male and female.
2. Upbringing. If you were brought up to believe that women had certain roles and men had certain roles, you're probably going to stick to traditional gender roles. Or rebel against them, depending on how much of a rebellious streak you have. Not to mention the prevailing clothing styles of your peers, what stage of life you're in and what you're exposed to (even I played with barbies and dolls when I was little... I also had Ninja Turtles action figures, though) etc.
3. Interests and abilities. If you're an athletic girl who throws a football as well as the guys, or a guy who finds he likes to ballet dance, that could influence how you see yourself and how comfortable you are with the other gender. I like logic, science, computers/technology, and popular science fiction.
This might tie in with interests and abilities, but don't discount the effect of biology. I'm not talking about athletic ability and such, I'm talking about brain chemistry, and changes to the brain before birth / in infancy / etc. as a result of random chance, getting the wrong mix of hormones in the womb, or whatever. In some cases, conservative, traditional upbringing and lack of non-stereotypical role models cannot override that.
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
4/24 7:05pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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Eleventh_Guard posted:
This might tie in with interests and abilities, but don't discount the effect of biology. I'm not talking about athletic ability and such, I'm talking about brain chemistry, and changes to the brain before birth / in infancy / etc. as a result of random chance, getting the wrong mix of hormones in the womb, or whatever. In some cases, conservative, traditional upbringing and lack of non-stereotypical role models cannot override that.
Usually, once you bring in possible biological factors, you're probably talking more about gender identity than gender expression. Whereas there are scientific studies that suggest the relationship between such biological factors and gender identity, there are no studies to the best of my knowledge that show or suggest such relationship with gender expression.
The difference is an important one, since gender identity issues are generally understood to include discomfort with the gender assigned at birth (i.e., the gender identity is at odds with the biological sex) but anything having to do with gender expression doesn't necessarily have to do with gender identity issues (i.e., someone who is biologically male may be very feminine but doesn't identify as a woman, or someone who is biologically female may be very butch but doesn't identify as male).
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
4/25 4:16am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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At root, we all know we're a product of our genes and our environment. Our evolutionary purpose is to pass our genes on. If gender expression is a choice your brain makes, you need to start by understanding that your brain has evolved first and foremost to solve problems of dominance. We've evolved to compete with each other for resources, including very much in particular breeding resources. As social animals, we've evolved to form tribes and cooperate with each other to gain an advantage in acquiring resources over what we could achieve individually or as a small family unit.
From an evolutionary point of view, if your gender expression alienates your tribe or makes it harder for you to compete for breeding resources, you have failed.
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
4/25 6:07am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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Jabbadabbado posted:
From an evolutionary point of view, if your gender expression alienates your tribe or makes it harder for you to compete for breeding resources, you have failed.
That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Where is your evidence that gender expression could "alienate your tribe"? It makes about as much sense as saying that you might "alienate your tribe" because of your skin color, religion, ethnicity or national origin. Sure, there's probably always a handful of people even in our day and age who might be prejudiced and openly hostile towards minority groups based on real or perceived differences, but that's just that - prejudice and bigotry.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
4/25 7:02am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
4/25 7:03am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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You absolutely might alienate your tribe because of your skin color, religion, ethnicity or national origin. We are hard wired for racism, ethnic bias and alienating just about anyone who is different. I hope no one has tried to tell you otherwise.
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