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Topic:
An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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Sauntaero
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
4/26 4:56pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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Thanks for bringing up this topic! This is great!
Eleventh_Guard posted:
Gender roles are so prevalent even in modern society that people don't know how to react when faced with someone that they can't easily categorize as a boy or a girl. Just because it's less obvious doesn't mean it's not there. People aren't as likely to tell a girl she can't be a scientist or tell a boy he can't be a nurse, but many still have wildly different expectations of people's behavior and presentations based on what sex they are, and if they can't tell because the cues are mixed or weak, they don't know what to do.
Absolutely agreed. The debate on whether gender expression is a matter of fitting in or not is moot when put in the context of a equal-gender society such as ours. Though for the most part, legal and economic inequalities have been negated, there is still a double-standard when it comes to perceived gender roles: one will still receive responses based on gender norms that originated in the middle ages or earlier. A man will be asked certain questions in basic small-talk, and a woman will be asked different ones. Men tend to be asked to do certain tasks (physical) while women are asked to do others (organisational) for example. Social interactions are tailored not so much in response to gender expression, but simply to gender alone, which is where the problem occurs.
From the very beginning of a child's social life, he or she is culturally infused with pressures to reinforce gender stereotypes (giving a boy cars and a girl dolls) while at the same time telling them they're equal. Eventually there will be some disconnect between what society tells them they can do, and how they should behave, based on their gender. Thus, a woman may be a politician, a perceived male role, but she is still expected to maintain traditional feminine qualities, similar to the men's/women's jeans example, and she will be inherently treated differently than a male politician, based only on gender stereotypes. Or women in the army would be an explicit example of this double standard.
I think the problem lies in the concept of masculinity/femininity and the roles attached to each. For me it's hard to believe that people still reinforce traditional male/female stereotypes, but I see it every day.
[/rant].
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Mr44
Title: Modly McHume:
the Senate
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/26 4:59pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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I would just like to say that from a board perspective, this thread is a great example of a well conducted, well behaved thread on what is a deep subject. It's a credit to everyone who is participating in it...
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ShrunkenJedi
Registered:
Apr '03
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Date Posted:
4/27 6:31am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
4/27 6:40am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
ShrunkenJedi
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Thanks, 44  And thanks everyone!
I agree with the last several posts, even when it's accepted that a woman is doing a traditionally male role or wearing traditionally male clothing she's expected to do that in a feminine way or it tends to upset people...
Sauntaero posted:
From the very beginning of a child's social life, he or she is culturally infused with pressures to reinforce gender stereotypes (giving a boy cars and a girl dolls) while at the same time telling them they're equal. Eventually there will be some disconnect between what society tells them they can do, and how they should behave, based on their gender.
I think you're on to something here... it's like the 'separate but equal' argument that the Supreme Court decided against with segregation, ultimately it's not equal.
EDIT: I was reading Dear Abby and came across something that I thought might give us some fodder for discussion. It makes me think that a lot of this probably is started as young children, when they get the idea of how a female or a male 'should' be, and then have the children's tendency to tease anything that's different...
Dear Abby posted:
BOY'S LONG HAIR MAKES HIM A TARGET OF RIDICULE
DEAR ABBY: Please help me deliver a message to a family here about their son, who is a fifth-grader in the school my children also attend.
These parents are well-known. They refuse to allow their son to get his hair cut, and it has caused him to withdraw from sports at school. He told some of his friends that he would like to get his hair cut because the other kids are calling him a girl. He just sits at home and plays games on TV. He's afraid to let his parents know about the teasing. Even some of the adults are afraid to talk to them.
I believe this to be a form of child abuse. The boy's parents read your column in the local paper. Please help him because the name-calling is bound to get worse as he gets older. -- ANOTHER PARENT IN TENNESSEE
DEAR PARENT: Surely these "well-known" parents love their son. Sometimes children are reluctant to confide to their parents that they're being teased because they are too ashamed. Because the boy is the target of ridicule, his teacher or the principal should have a talk with the mother or father. However, if they are too intimidated to raise the subject, then you should.
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Jabbadabbado
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
4/28 4:49am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing that a society like ours promotes gender equality as a value yet in the aggregate prefers some kinds of gender expression over others. At any rate it's impossible to legislate gender socialization out of existence. I know many parents who prided themselves on buying their young daughters toy cars and playing catch with them and then being frustrated as the girls gradually took on more and more girlish attributes as they grew. Parents quickly realize that they are not the sole source, and probably not even the primary source, and maybe not even a significant source of gender socialization for their own children.
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AnakinsGirl
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
5/2 10:16pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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My roommate is a conservative Christian and she seems to be totally unaware of the idea of "gender role", except that maybe it is a giant lesbian conspiracy. To her, wearing makeup, worrying about clothes and hair, and carrying a purse are all things that inherently make up what it means to be a female. There is no connection that carrying a purse, wearing skirts and makeup are all socially constructed norms. To her, they are natural. "Is now, ever shall be, world without end, Amen".
This type of thought process bewilders me. I am not out to say that in order to be a feminist you have to stop shaving your legs and start kissing girls, but to me the things I do in this society are not what defines my femininity, or my identity. I remember she recently told me she was upset at Natalie Portman's short hairstyle a while back because "It made her look like a boy!!" To her, looking like a boy is NOT acceptable. It bends the norms--in her mind, a weird and threatening idea.
I am simply sharing this because I never spent much time thinking about gender roles myself, until this year. I guess my ultimate point is that I was shocked to meet someone who is so socialized and conditioned to truly believe that men really are predisposed to being better at fixing computers and heavy lifting, and women are naturally more concerned about their looks--rather than these traits being more the result of social pressures and reinforcement of roles.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/2 10:37pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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I'd say men ARE predisposed to heavy lifting, overall.
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
5/2 10:42pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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AnakinsGirl posted:
I am simply sharing this because I never spent much time thinking about gender roles myself, until this year. I guess my ultimate point is that I was shocked to meet someone who is so socialized and conditioned to truly believe that men really are predisposed to being better at fixing computers and heavy lifting, and women are naturally more concerned about their looks--rather than these traits being more the result of social pressures and reinforcement of roles.
Amazing. Just amazing. 
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ShrunkenJedi
Registered:
Apr '03
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Date Posted:
5/3 8:12am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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Wow, AG... thanks for sharing that, that sort of thinking just bewilders me. I mean, it's pretty obvious that makeup, skirts, purses, and (gosh!) computers are human inventions and have nothing to do with a person's biological sex...
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Sauntaero
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
5/3 9:30am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
5/3 9:31am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Sauntaero
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Whew. Very good post, AnakinsGirl. You hit one of the problems right on the nose, IMHO.
There is no connection (by this girl) that carrying a purse, wearing skirts and makeup are all socially constructed norms.
Exactly. And I would guess that you'd be surprised at how widespread this concept is. Whether or not it's simply ignorance of sociology or if it's actually taught that 'this is the way things should be,' I don't know, though I hope it would be the first! But it's this attitude--that girls should wear makeup, and guys should be buff--that I find myself often having to contend against. And maybe it is a radical idea to hold that the only difference between women and men is a 50/50 genentic probability. After that, so much of a perception of gender is based solely on social constructs.
Although this genetic basis gives rise to other physical differences, this in no way means that women or men are better-suited for particular work in the modern world. 'Predisposed' is a very dangerous term, Lowbacca. Because a female is physically smaller and less muscular than a male based on genetics does not mean she cannot enjoy, or cannot physically do heavy labour. Perhaps if it came to a competition between an average man and an average woman would this make a difference, but not in a career situation, where no one would usually be required to lift over let's say 60 lbs or 25 kg. I would be willing to BET that any woman who works out in any fashion could do that. But it is persuading the average female to try it, to overcome the sterotype that men are automatically stronger than women, that is the difficult part. As long as these stereotypes are passively maintained, this mistake of pairing gender and ability (or predisposition to something) will still exist. I know several women who do have labour-intensive jobs, and routinely lift as much as their male coworkers without a problem. I think it's safe to say that physical differences (and thus gender as a whole) should make no difference in today's society.
So, about social stereoypes and modernisation.....
I think I understand what you mean, Jabba.
a society like ours... prefers some kinds of gender expression over others.
Of course. Social norms are what bind any given society together, set the rules for behaviour, etc. It's a fact. However, since we are living in a modern, progressive (well, I like to think so at least!  ) society, I think it logically follows that we must relax previously-held norms and be open to those who choose a different expression of gender. Of course it's not possible to legislate gender socialisation, but as a society as a whole it is our responsibility to come to terms with the idea that 'it's okay to be different.' Sure, there's nothing wrong with girls enjoying traditionally 'girly' things! But if they're brought up to see them as the only things they can do, and girls who do other things are harassed, then our so-called tolerance of the other is hypocritical. Social norms are important, but not so important in today's world that people should be outcast because of them.
To end, I guess my point is this: it must be generally realised that gender expression IS a social construct, and that previously-held ideas about gender differences have little to no significance to a modern society such as ours.
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I just hope I'm around to see the day the New Republic catches up with you.
Whether they give you a medal or just shoot you--either way, it'll be a terrific show.
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
5/3 10:24am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
I'd say men ARE predisposed to heavy lifting, overall.
You really don't think that's an overgeneralization? Because I know plenty of very butch women who enjoy heavy lifting much more than some of the guys I know in San Francisco.
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LemmingLord
Title: PT Manager & CLUE Host
Registered:
Apr '05
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Date Posted:
5/3 6:32pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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I can still remember taking my office professionals class in high school. I was the only boy in a class of twenty. Whenever there was lifting of equipment, guess who they had do it?
Note: I was a nerd. There were atheletic women in the class.. 
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
5/3 6:43pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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Princess_Tina posted:
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
I'd say men ARE predisposed to heavy lifting, overall.
You really don't think that's an overgeneralization? Because I know plenty of very butch women who enjoy heavy lifting much more than some of the guys I know in San Francisco.
I said predisposed. Not that its an absolute rule, just an in general statement.
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
5/3 9:45pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
I said predisposed. Not that its an absolute rule, just an in general statement.
I'd say it's as much of a generalization as saying that men are predisposed to liking women. It may apply to quite a lot of men, but there are enough exceptions that it makes more sense to say "most men".
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Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
5/3 11:33pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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I think the word 'predisposed' implies the 'most'. So yes, it is valid to say men are predisposed to heavy lifting, and it is also valid to say that men are predisposed to be sexually attracted to women.
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Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
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Date Posted:
5/4 1:10am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
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Hammurabi posted:
I think the word 'predisposed' implies the 'most'. So yes, it is valid to say men are predisposed to heavy lifting, and it is also valid to say that men are predisposed to be sexually attracted to women.
To me, 'predisposed' is a word that can apply to individuals or to a group in general. So I would say some men, maybe even a majority of men, may be predisposed to heavy lifting, but certainly so are a number of women, however small as a percentage of the female population.
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