| Author |
Topic:
An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
|
Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
|
Date Posted:
5/4 2:01am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
|
Please note the usage of the word 'over all' to indicate the group 'over all' not every single individual.
If the physical structure for men and women were equal, then why is it that in height, which is pretty well out of one's control, shows that men are, on average, about 4 inches taller (give or take) than women? It is a ridiculous premise to say that physically, men and women are equal when looked at averaged groups. Thats not saying that all men are physically superior to all women. In fact, I know plenty of women that can probably beat me up. I know some that are definitly stronger than me. The average man is going to be more likely to be good at heavy lifting than the average woman.
You're putting absolutes onto my statement that were never there.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
|
Date Posted:
5/4 2:16am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
5/4 2:17am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Princess_Tina
|
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
It is a ridiculous premise to say that physically, men and women are equal when looked at averaged groups. Thats not saying that all men are physically superior to all women. In fact, I know plenty of women that can probably beat me up. I know some that are definitly stronger than me. The average man is going to be more likely to be good at heavy lifting than the average woman.
The problem is that averages aren't representative of every kind of man and woman. That's why they are averages. No, men and women are not equal physically, but there is nonetheless an overlap between the two, as you quite rightly pointed out, and so you may have some women who are larger and stronger than some men.
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
You're putting absolutes onto my statement that were never there.
Not my intention. I'm just trying to explain to you why your statement sounded to me like such a huge generalization.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
ShrunkenJedi
Registered:
Apr '03
|
Date Posted:
5/4 7:22am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
5/4 7:24am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
ShrunkenJedi
|
|
Mmmm, that's exactly the thing-- you can look at the averages and say that more men are suited for this and more women are suited for that. But when there is significant overlap, as there is in both the realm of physical and mental tasks, you have to look at the individual and not the group when you decide what a particular person is suited for doing. And a lot of people seem unwilling to do that and slap a gender stereotype on people without thinking, and like AG's roomate, get apalled when women do 'manly' things and men do 'feminine' things.
-----signature-----
Native Bostonian: I was rooting for the Red Sox before it was cool Fanficcer and Fanartist-- check the profile! My New Drabbles and Viggies: http://boards.theforce.net/the_saga/b10476/28153417/
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
|
Date Posted:
5/4 7:48am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
|
ShrunkenJedi posted:
Mmmm, that's exactly the thing-- you can look at the averages and say that more men are suited for this and more women are suited for that. But when there is significant overlap, as there is in both the realm of physical and mental tasks, you have to look at the individual and not the group when you decide what a particular person is suited for doing. And a lot of people seem unwilling to do that and slap a gender stereotype on people without thinking, and like AG's roomate, get apalled when women do 'manly' things and men do 'feminine' things.
That's kind of the point I wanted to make. It's kind of unfair to attribute a certain characteristic to men in general when it's more accurate to say, for example, that such a trait is common to the majority of men and to some women. Otherwise you end up marginalizing those who are in the minority.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
|
Date Posted:
5/4 10:18am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
|
|
At this point, we're arguing semantics. There has been a miscommunication here, but at this point, Lowbacca's meaning seems pretty clear.
-----signature-----
and i know no one can sing the blues like blind willie mctell
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
AnakinsGirl
Registered:
Nov '01
|
Date Posted:
5/4 12:24pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
5/4 12:29pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
AnakinsGirl
|
Princess Tina: assuming that most women who can do heavy lifting are "butch" is just as much of a gender stereotype as your adversary. That's a very closed-minded thing to say. I know plenty of girls that can do some pretty serious heavy lifting and are in no way "butch". I'm just saying, that's a pretty narrow generalization that does nothing to help your argument.
EDIT:
Another interesting point was brough up: that in most cases, it is getting women to try to do heavy lifting, for example, and go against the values that they have been even subconsciously brought up to believe, that is a big part of the conception that women can't do heavy lifting.
When my boyfriend and his roommates were moving into their new home, they decided to renovate the garage. It was very difficult for me to jump in and start helping with lifting and other construction, whereas one of the guys' girlfriends was comfortable being assertive and participating with the other men. It was more my own doubts about my abilities and fears of not being able to perform as well that prevented me from helping, not really the knowledge of my actual abilities. Very interesting, when you think about the subtleties of social gender roles.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
|
Date Posted:
5/4 4:03pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
5/4 4:04pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Princess_Tina
|
AnakinsGirl posted:
Princess Tina: assuming that most women who can do heavy lifting are "butch" is just as much of a gender stereotype as your adversary. That's a very closed-minded thing to say. I know plenty of girls that can do some pretty serious heavy lifting and are in no way "butch". I'm just saying, that's a pretty narrow generalization that does nothing to help your argument.
I find it extremely offensive of you to assume that just because I talk about something I know from personal experience, I am making any assumptions whatsoever regarding women outside of San Francisco. The women I know personally in San Francisco who would enjoy it are all on the butch side. You have no right whatsoever to criticize me on the basis of the women who are my friends, nor is it right of you to imply that I made assumptions about the other women in the rest of the world who may do heavy lifting.
What you said is not only closed-minded, but it is also a very ignorant statement.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
|
Date Posted:
5/4 4:34pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
|
There is, I think, a note of irony that after misinterpretting my statement and criticising me for having made a broad generalisation that you're now this defensive over your own statements not being clear enough and being easily interpretted as a meaning that you apparently did not intend.
Though, I would agree with AnakinsGirl that to my reading of it, it was seeming to say that a tendancy toward heavy lifting is only in women that would be described as 'butch', otherwise why was that a neccessary descriptor in showing just that some women can do more heavy lifting than some men.
I'm not sure how you're arguing that AnakinsGirl was either close-minded OR ignorant, as she never said that there was anything wrong with the women that are your friends, just that your statement seemed to imply that heavy lifting is only for 'butch' women.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
|
Date Posted:
5/4 4:39pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
5/4 4:39pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Princess_Tina
|
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
There is, I think, a note of irony that after misinterpretting my statement and criticising me for having made a broad generalisation that you're now this defensive over your own statements not being clear enough and being easily interpretted as a meaning that you apparently did not intend.
There isn't irony. Please go back and re-read the posts. You were talking about men in general, whereas in the post that AnakinsGirl referred to, I was talking about the women I know in SF who do heavy lifting.
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Though, I would agree with AnakinsGirl that to my reading of it, it was seeming to say that a tendancy toward heavy lifting is only in women that would be described as 'butch', otherwise why was that a neccessary descriptor in showing just that some women can do more heavy lifting than some men.
I'm not sure how you're arguing that AnakinsGirl was either close-minded OR ignorant, as she never said that there was anything wrong with the women that are your friends, just that your statement seemed to imply that heavy lifting is only for 'butch' women.
No, you are misreading my post just the same as AnakinsGirl did. Please re-read it. I referred to the women I know in SF, not to all women in the world. I made no statement whatsoever indicating that all women all over the world were likely to be butch if they liked heavy lifting.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
|
Date Posted:
5/4 5:11pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
|
well, really, its how you diagram the sentence.
As the sentence goes, "Because I know plenty of very butch women who enjoy heavy lifting much more than some of the guys I know in San Francisco."
Since the 'I know in San Francisco' applies to guys if read most directly, there is that spot for misinterpretation, as well as the question of why you felt the word butch was neccessary rather than just saying women. Why is that they're butch a neccessary adjective? It'd be like adding sexual orientation to it, which would also be not directly relevant. Or if they were left or right handed.
Of course, you're also missing entirely where I noted that this was again misunderstanding. Remember when you took away the wrong message from mine and explained it as "I'm just trying to explain to you why your statement sounded to me like such a huge generalization."?
And I clarified what I meant by predesposed and overall so my statement was better explained? Remember that?
Cuz, this is the same thing. Except, without me calling you closed-minded and ignorant for taking away a different interpretation from what I'd intended.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
|
Date Posted:
5/4 5:19pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
- Date Edited:
5/4 5:23pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Princess_Tina
|
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
well, really, its how you diagram the sentence.
As the sentence goes, "Because I know plenty of very butch women who enjoy heavy lifting much more than some of the guys I know in San Francisco."
Since the 'I know in San Francisco' applies to guys if read most directly, there is that spot for misinterpretation, as well as the question of why you felt the word butch was neccessary rather than just saying women. Why is that they're butch a neccessary adjective? It'd be like adding sexual orientation to it, which would also be not directly relevant. Or if they were left or right handed.
Why shouldn't I be able to describe the way my friends express their gender? This whole thread is about gender expression and gender roles. Besides, by saying "I know plenty of very butch women", even without the rest of the sentence, I think it's fairly clear that I'm talking about women I know personally, not about all the women in all the world. Another person in this thread described a woman they know as being extremely femme. You didn't feel the need to question that person's description of a femme woman. Why are you questioning my description of my own butch friends? And of course I think in this particular case it makes all the sense in the world to mention it, because I'm pointing out that from personal experience, the women I know do not fit in with gender stereotypes either in appearance *or* behaviour.
Lowbacca_1977 posted:
Cuz, this is the same thing. Except, without me calling you closed-minded and ignorant for taking away a different interpretation from what I'd intended.
There is a difference in that you were talking about men in general; I was talking about women I know. It's entirely unfair to assume I made a generalization about all women when the very sentence starts with "I know...". You made an assumption about all men (everywhere in the world) and I was merely describing the women I know personally.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
|
Date Posted:
5/4 7:39pm
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
|
|
Now we're just misinterpreting each other.
-----signature-----
and i know no one can sing the blues like blind willie mctell
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
AnakinsGirl
Registered:
Nov '01
|
Date Posted:
5/5 12:30am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
|
|
Hey, if I misinterpreted what you meant, by all means correct me. There is no need to get so defensive and start attacking other people. All you need to do is clarify what you meant. The way you phrased your statement, "I know plenty of butch women in San Fransisco" sounded to me like you were implying that women who do heavy lifting are butch. In all honesty, the three of us are being more argumentative and counterproductive to the point of this thread, which is about gender identity. Chill out and take a deep breath. If you think someone is misunderstanding what you mean, it takes only a brief moment of explaining to make everything better. No need for such zeal when defending such a minor point in the whole of the discussion.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Princess_Tina
Registered:
May '01
|
Date Posted:
5/5 3:12am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
|
AnakinsGirl posted:
If you think someone is misunderstanding what you mean, it takes only a brief moment of explaining to make everything better. No need for such zeal when defending such a minor point in the whole of the discussion.
Well, it would have helped a bit if you didn't call me closed-minded based on some misinterpretation of what I said. Most of my friends here in the Bay Area are part of the LGBT community, and it seems to me that it makes sense that a lot of the women that I know would be butch. 
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
king_alvarez
Registered:
May '07
|
Date Posted:
5/5 8:23am
Subject:
RE: An Open Conversation on Gender Roles and Identity
|
AnakinsGirl posted:
I guess my ultimate point is that I was shocked to meet someone who is so socialized and conditioned to truly believe that men really are predisposed to being better at fixing computers and heavy lifting, and women are naturally more concerned about their looks--rather than these traits being more the result of social pressures and reinforcement of roles.
I wouldn't be shocked to find that many social pressures or social constructs are the result of reinforcing natural predispositions at an aggregate level.
For example, do women like to wear makeup because they want to fit the conditioned stereotype for women, or does the stereotype become conditioned because the average woman is more likely to be concerned with her appearance, or is there even a difference? It's basically a chicken or the egg question.
-----signature-----
Because there are no story-book romances, no fairy-tale endings. So before you run out and change the world, ask yourself, "What do you really want?"
Because life... is not a movie. Everyone lies. Good guys lose. And love... does not conquer all.
|
|
|
Quote Reply |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
