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Topic:
Evidence of Evolution
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/12 12:24am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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No, more likely they'll pull out their new tactic:
"All that proves is that microevolution happens. That's just adaptation within a species. That isn't evidence of one species becoming another."
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/12 11:26am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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And evolutionary scientists could counter that we have solid evidence of the mechanisms by which evolution occurs -- genetic mutation, for one. Speciation takes place over tens of thousands of years, so we're not likely to see it happen in our lifetime. But its mechanisms -- the processes that lead to speciation -- are observable in numerous instances.
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/12 11:34am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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Vortigern99 posted:
And evolutionary scientists could counter that we have solid evidence of the mechanisms by which evolution occurs -- genetic mutation, for one. Speciation takes place over tens of thousands of years, so we're not likely to see it happen in our lifetime. But its mechanisms -- the processes that lead to speciation -- are observable in numerous instances.
THEN the creationists will ignore the evidence.
Or pull out the old chestnut "Evolution is a religion just like creationism, the only difference is your God is 'time'."
Never mind that even minimal evidence trumps no evidence whatsoever. The ultimate problem is that creationists aren't interested in facts if they contradict the conclusion they've already drawn, and there's not much you can do except hope they snap out of it.
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VadersLaMent
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
6/13 1:53pm
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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of course we are all on the same page here. And to prove what we say:
Louisiana schools open to creationism?
Wednesday, the Louisiana House passed a bill that would allow teachers to promote "critical thinking." Critics say it's just intelligent design in a new package.
Vincent Rossmeier
Jun. 12, 2008 | The next political flap over evolution is about to land right on one of John McCain's would-be running mates. On Wednesday, the Louisiana House passed a bill that would let the state's teachers change the way they teach topics like global warming, cloning and evolution, letting them discuss criticisms of evolutionary theory and use supplementary materials that some critics fear could include fundamentalist Christian publications.
The bill passed with a resounding 94-3 vote. As the state Senate has already passed a similar measure, the legislation will likely soon be up for Gov. Bobby Jindal's approval. Jindal is rumored to be under consideration as McCain's vice-presidential nominee. How he handles the evolution bill could wind up becoming a factor in whether he's chosen, as conservatives and liberals alike will be watching with some interest.
According to the Washington Times, a spokeswoman for Jindal said only that the governor would review the bill, not whether he would sign it. However, in a recent Boston Globe profile, Sasha Issenberg wrote that the bill is "expected to receive Jindal's signature upon passage." A New York Times piece from June 2 also stated that Jindal has questioned the validity of evolution. Jindal is Catholic, a faith that does not believe evolution contradicts biblical teachings. The governor also holds a degree in biology from Brown University.
The passage of the bill already has opponents of "creation science" in an uproar. The Rev. Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, said in a statement, "It's time for Louisiana to step into the 21st century and stop trying to teach religion in public schools ... Laws like this are an embarrassment." His group will sue if teachers try to introduce religious materials into the classroom.
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DarthKomar
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
6/19 11:37pm
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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I don't see why both can't be true. (Creation and Evolution)
There are many Evolution theories such as natural selection, why can't God be one of them?
God never "just did stuff" in the Bible, he had his pillars of fire and such when he could have just snapped his fingers and hey presto, one dead army or a plague.
Creationist also argue that everything is to complex to have happened randomly and I agree, but also we have the evidence of evolution showing life adapting to fit their habitat.
So I personally choose to believe in evolution and that God is the driving force behind it because I can't see how DNA (lol, I typed "DAN" the first time :P) can see the changes in the environment and change us/other animals to fit those changes.
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/20 12:34am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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DarthKomar posted:
There are many Evolution theories such as natural selection, why can't God be one of them?
Sure, God can be one of them. But it's a poor one, as no evidence exists to support it. The best that can be summoned is "God COULD have done it that way!"
DarthKomar posted:
God never "just did stuff" in the Bible, he had his pillars of fire and such when he could have just snapped his fingers and hey presto, one dead army or a plague.
Which is one of the reasons that claims of God's omnipotence are laughable, but that's a topic for the atheism thread.
DarthKomar posted:
Creationist also argue that everything is to complex to have happened randomly and I agree, but also we have the evidence of evolution showing life adapting to fit their habitat.
Evolution agrees with you. Mutations are random but the selection process is anything but.
DarthKomar posted:
So I personally choose to believe in evolution and that God is the driving force behind it because I can't see how DNA (lol, I typed "DAN" the first time :P) can see the changes in the environment and change us/other animals to fit those changes.
DNA can't see the changes in the environment. But if you have an organism that is more suited, even slightly, to living in a given environment, that organism will be more likely to reproduce successfully, creating another generation that carries that same beneficial trait. Again, the mutations are random, but the selection process is very distinctly not. Those organisms whose DNA makes them capable of surviving, survive. Those whose DNA does not, do not.
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DarthKomar
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
6/20 12:50am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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Imagine someone 9-10 thousand years ago askes God how he made everything, if God where to say "I just did it" would they understand that?
The fact remains that no one was there when the universe came into existence, so who is to say one is right and the other is wrong? We can argue about this till the cows come home, assuming they do come home if you get my meaning.
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/20 12:53am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
- Date Edited:
6/20 12:57am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DorkmanScott
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DarthKomar posted:
Imagine someone 9-10 thousand years ago askes God how he made everything, if God where to say "I just did it" would they understand that?
I'm sorry, I don't see how this relates to the discussion.
DarthKomar posted:
The fact remains that no one was there when the universe came into existence, so who is to say one is right and the other is wrong?
The one with the evidence in their corner is more likely to be right than the one without.
DarthKomar posted:
We can argue about this till the cows come home, assuming they do come home if you get my meaning.
I'm afraid I don't. For my benefit, it would be best if you spoke in direct statements rather than metaphors and rhetorical questions.
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DarthKomar
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
6/20 1:04am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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I meant there is no way either of us can really prove their cases, we'll have to wait until one of us dies (MWHAHA) and assuming that there is (I say assuming for the sake of starting a new argument) a great being. We can ask him/her/it/them, with no way of informing the other of our discovery. And so we'll never know with that situation. The only other situation, no god(s), then mankind will argue on this subject until the entire human race has died out.
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/20 1:11am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
- Date Edited:
6/20 1:12am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DorkmanScott
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DarthKomar posted:
I meant there is no way either of us can really prove their cases
Nonsense. The evidence is key, and all the evidence -- all the evidence -- is totally consistent with evolutionary theory and totally inconsistent with creationist theory, at least young-earth creationism. But consistency of evidence is only one part of what makes a scientific theory valuable and valid. Another major part is predictability -- if A is true, then if we perform action B, we should expect to discover C. Evolutionary predictions tend to be spot on, whereas creationism is incapable of making any predictions at all.
And remember that evolution does not address how life began, only how it developed once it had begun.
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DarthKomar
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
6/20 1:25am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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It might be worth pointing out that I'm not creationist as creationist believe that God created the world in 6 days and that the universe is only 6,000 odd years old. I have seen evidence against that and as there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, I believe in evolution.
We both seem to believe in evolution, but the debate is what is the driving force behind it or am I wrong?
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/20 1:30am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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DarthKomar posted:
It might be worth pointing out that I'm not creationist as creationist believe that God created the world in 6 days and that the universe is only 6,000 odd years old.
That is a specific kind of creationism called Young Earth Creationism. To believe that God created everything but may have used the mechanism of evolution over billions of years is called Old Earth Creationism. Though to be fair, "creationism" almost always refers to YEC.
DarthKomar posted:
I have seen evidence against that and as there is no evidence to suggest otherwise, I believe in evolution.
Good for you, you're ahead of the curve.
DarthKomar posted:
We both seem to believe in evolution, but the debate is what is the driving force behind it or am I wrong?
You are a bit wrong. There is no debate in evolutionary science as to how things started, because that is not the purview of evolutionary biology. That is a cosmological debate.
The debate is whether or not things evolved over a long period of time, or were created in 6 literal days -- more particularly, whether the latter ought to be taught in schools as a valid, scientific alternative to the former.
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DarthKomar
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
6/20 1:39am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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Well then I guess I'm an Old Earth Creationist, but I hate to use the term.
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Lowbacca_1977
Title: Senate Moderator
Registered:
Jun '06
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Date Posted:
6/20 3:25am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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As far as it relates to this, I'll just say, I've never had ANY problem with people that felt that natural selection and evolution is tied to how god works, mainly as, to me, its attaching a spiritual significance to science (and something that is, generally random) rather than trying to twist science to support the religious views, and it doesn't strike me as something that then forces people that disagree with the religious aspects to adjust their scientific views.
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Master_SweetPea
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
6/21 7:45am
Subject:
RE: Evidence of Evolution
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Lowbacca_1977 posted:
As far as it relates to this, I'll just say, I've never had ANY problem with people that felt that natural selection and evolution is tied to how god works, mainly as, to me, its attaching a spiritual significance to science (and something that is, generally random) rather than trying to twist science to support the religious views, and it doesn't strike me as something that then forces people that disagree with the religious aspects to adjust their scientific views.
IF you believe every story in "The Bible" (by that I mean the non-Apocrypha canon)
then you MUST believe in Natural selection, the whole starting over from the Ark thing, etc.
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