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Topic:
Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
6/11 1:55pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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... But that's what I meant!
Oh well, good to know we agree.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/11 2:12pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/11 2:17pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
ShaneP
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Vortigern
since if the practice of magickal arts has no end result or basis in reality, then its pursuit is merely a pasttime, a hobby akin to knitting or painting model airplanes. It is not godly, perhaps, but then neither are baseball or playing video games or coloring in Jar Jar coloring books. In short, if magic -- especially magic depicted in Potter -- is not real, where is the harm, where the sin?
That's really the point though. Ancient peoples believed those things or people had power. They thought it was real.
Because they thought it could happen, and it seemed different or contrary to religious doctrine, it was sinful.
We now know those things cannot happen(or at least some people know). They are rendered harmless as a result.
We can give mysterious or unknown things power by just not knowing what they're about. We can assign them power they may not posses. That's what the ancients did.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/11 2:41pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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Yes, I understand the ancients believed in the magic arts. I happen to believe in them to a certain degree. But Jabba-wocky has been saying he doesn't believe in them, and he has also asserted that many Christians who object to Potter also do not believe in them. Hence my question: Where is the sin in the practice of an art that in your view has no basis in reality? Without real effect in the world, "witchcraft" or spell-craft is just a pasttime, a secular hobby with no greater or less a chance of removing one from God's graces (=sin) than painting-by-numbers or playing SuperMario Bros.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/11 3:20pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/11 3:24pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
ShaneP
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Vortigern
But Jabba-wocky has been saying he doesn't believe in them, and he has also asserted that many Christians who object to Potter also do not believe in them. Hence my question: Where is the sin in the practice of an art that in your view has no basis in reality? Without real effect in the world, "witchcraft" or spell-craft is just a pasttime, a secular hobby with no greater or less a chance of removing one from God's graces (=sin) than painting-by-numbers or playing SuperMario Bros.
Because while Jabba wocky may believe withcraft isn't real, others who are after Potter do believe spells, incantations, etc are real.
I grew up in a active religious community, northern Utah, and many people in it definately believed in the power of the devil, etc.
BTW, religious people do go after violent videogames and such from time to time...........not Super Mario though. 
edit
It does make you wonder though how sincere they were about it or if it was all just a fear tactic to keep their kids in church and to get you to go.
Maybe they knew better and weren't as superstitious as they let on?
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Jabba-wocky
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
6/11 3:25pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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ShaneP: I'll keep it brief so we don't get off topic too much. It's of course possible that "the wrong side won." However, I think there are three things that suggest otherwise. First, of the gospel accounts/incidents that are commonly agreed on by all parties, it seems to me that the Pauline/Apostolic/"mainstream" group keeps more easily in line with them than do the now extinct , "heretical" branches of Christianity (Gnostics, etc). Secondly, as demonstrated by Paul's robust talents at several points, the mainstream group also seems more of a logical successor to Judaism, and the prophecies it had concerning the coming Messiah. Thirdly, we know historically that Jesus's actual disciples and closest followers (Peter, John, etc) were part of the mainstream group, while the extinct branches at best claim adherents who are historically less intimately connected with Jesus. My point there is that it seems unlikely that the people who knew Jesus better would be more likely to misunderstand his message than those who knew him less well.
EDIT: I was midway through a section that detailed my response to the main line of discussion, but I have to leave suddenly. So, I'll just post this whole, completed portion of my post, and then do the next in another chunk later on today, or perhaps tomorrow.
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ays Darius the king: 8 of my family (there were) who were formerly kings; I am the ninth (9); long aforetime we are kings.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/11 3:52pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/11 3:54pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
ShaneP
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Jabba Wocky
Thirdly, we know historically that Jesus's actual disciples and closest followers (Peter, John, etc) were part of the mainstream group, while the extinct branches at best claim adherents who are historically less intimately connected with Jesus.
The above is the strongest and very compelling though all three are good points.
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Saintheart
Title: Manager and Wandering Swordsman of the RPF
Registered:
Dec '00
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Date Posted:
6/11 6:29pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/11 6:33pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Saintheart
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Yes, I understand the ancients believed in the magic arts. I happen to believe in them to a certain degree. But Jabba-wocky has been saying he doesn't believe in them, and he has also asserted that many Christians who object to Potter also do not believe in them. Hence my question: Where is the sin in the practice of an art that in your view has no basis in reality? Without real effect in the world, "witchcraft" or spell-craft is just a pasttime, a secular hobby with no greater or less a chance of removing one from God's graces (=sin) than painting-by-numbers or playing SuperMario Bros.
Just to roll a small hand grenade in at this point, I'd like to quote Ben Affleck from "Dogma" in reference to the children's book, video, and music character Mooby the Golden Calf: "You are responsible for raising an icon which draws worship from the Lord. You have broken the First Commandment."
The point being, and the First Commandment being: "I am the Lord thy God; thou shalt have no other gods before Me."
That is possibly part of the rationale for the unreasoning hatred of Pothead and LOTR; because even if you don't believe it, you are supporting an icon which draws attention and adoration from God...?
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
6/11 9:49pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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Is "raising an icon which draws worship from the Lord" that same thing as "having other gods before me"? To the extent that the word "raising" is equivalent to "worshipping" and the word "icon" means "god" then I guess it may fall foul of the First Commandment - otherwise you are not really worshipping another god before God, merely engaging in activity which draws worship from the Lord by focusing attention on another subject matter (not neceesarily a god) . In which case, supporting any secular activity would potentially fall foul of the First Commandment.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/12 12:10am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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What LOH said. Any and all secular activity -- reading novels of non-religious subject matter, learning a foreign language, flamenco dancing, watching a comedy movie -- could be said to "draw adoration away from God". But that's not what the First Commandment is talking about; it specifically prohibits worshipping other gods. Witchcraft of the variety pursued in Potter has nothing to do with gods or goddesses; it is not Wicca -- modern goddess worship -- but rather the craft of spell-making alone.
Thus I repeat my point: If magick is not held to be real, then witchcraft is an innocent, non-religious pasttime akin to skiing or putting a puzzle together. In order for the prohibition against witchcraft to make theological sense, it must be held to be real and efficacious. Jabba-wocky's disbelief in the reality of magick, a disbelief said to be shared by many other Christians, essentially negates magick's supposedly sinful effects... unless one also considers model airplane making, or playing Monopoly, or flying a kite to also be sinful enterprises since they too "draw adoration away from God".
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Jabba-wocky
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
6/12 8:25am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/12 8:38am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabba-wocky
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I am now prepared to answer. The first consideration we need to make is one I made earlier. Even things that are not real in point of fact can be seriously troublesome if treated as real by the person in question. For instance, the prophet Isaiah makes one of the most robust defenses of monotheism ever written, with "there is no God but [the God of Israel]" appearing literally half a dozen times on a single page, and variants thereof (ex "there was no God created before me, neither will there be any after me" saith the Lord) appearing almost twice as frequently, for chapter after chapter. Nonetheless, he also condemns Israelites as sinners for worshipping gods that, according to him, do not exist (Baal, Dagon, Ashtoreth, Molech, etc). Why? Because regardless of whether it is actually real or not, the Israelites thought those gods were real, and were actiing accordingly in worshipping them. In the same way, even though a lot of witchcraft is not, in fact, real, it is sinful to engage in the practice with the belief in your heart that it is real. In neither case is it an acceptable excuse to say "because it's not real, I'm not really doing anything." From the Biblical view, it merely means that you have done something that is a waste of time as well as being grossly offensive to God. Other sins, at least, actually bring some transient benefit to you--that is, if you had, say, robbed someone instead, you would at least have the money that you stole. But you don't get any credit for sinning stupidly.
Now, you are correct in pointing out that what we have to consider is the reason why witchcraft is sinful. Or, to be more precise, we have to try and grapple with the problem of spell-making itself. The problem is that magic/spell-making asserts control over, or at least manipulation of, supernatural forces. It is explicitly acting outside the normal laws of the universe as described by physics, chemistry, biology, and the other sciences. Such a claim begs the question of the source of their supernatural influence. Within the Christian understanding of the universe, any supernatural power must emanate from either God and his servants, or from demons. These are the only two possibilities because no other classes or categories of non-material entities exist. The Bible is quite explicit about supernatural power exercised by God, and that it is utilized at His discretion, and petitioned for through prayer, fasting, and direct invocation of God. Any use of the supernatural that lacks some or all of these elements (that isn't explicitly directed towards petitioning the one God of the Bible) must therefore be drawing from the other source of supernatural power. I think we can all see how it would be understandable that God might therefore object to communion and cooperation with demons, or unsuccessfully attempting to do so.
EDIT: Though it's unrelated, I should mention that since it's been brought up, it's commonly held that innocent pastimes can become sinful if carried to an extreme. For instance, if someone becomes so focused on playing basketball that they stop attending church, praying, and reading the Bible to free up more time for it, and come to love playing basketball more than God, then they will have developed a sinful attitude about that otherwise positive, non-religious activity.
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ays Darius the king: 8 of my family (there were) who were formerly kings; I am the ninth (9); long aforetime we are kings.
All Hail His Excellency, Barack Obama
Roma vincit
Tearing Up a Lane (TERRIN UP A LAAAANE!!!)
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
6/12 8:46am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/12 8:52am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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I should point out here that there is a wonderful trilogy of children's books that is far more offensive to Christianity than the Harry Potter series.
The Bartimaeus trilogy by Jonathan Stroud also posits an alternate present-day England featuring a class-based society divided between spell-casters and the general public. Humans have no magical ability, per se, but there are mechanisms for summoning demons who can do magic on the spell-caster's behalf.
It is extremely well written and very popular on the scale of all children's literature not written by JK Rowlings.
Unfortunately, going after these books will not generate remotely the same level of media attention that Christians get from going after Harry Potter.
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ShrunkenJedi
Registered:
Apr '03
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Date Posted:
6/12 10:00am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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Jabba-Wocky:
We're talking about fantasy here, on the same order that Star Wars is not science fiction but fantasy because it involves the Force which there is no evidence for whatsoever, which is in context supposedly an emanation of life itself and not a God. On the same order as LOTR and the Chronicles of Narnia. Most of us don't actually believe in the Force, or Hobbits, or worlds you can get to through the back of a wardrobe and talking animals. Neither do most Harry Potter fans believe in magic, attempt to do magic, etc. It's not supposed to be real. It's supposed to be a story, which may have a moral or demonstrate a lesson.
So are you just talking about the minority who may think of magic as real? Otherwise, the comparison with false gods that people believed to be real doesn't really work.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/12 10:49am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/12 10:53am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Vortigern99
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I'd like to provide some context for Isaiah's writings as referenced by Jabba-wocky, above. The passages in which the author describes God speaking, proclaiming that "I am the LORD (YHWH) and there is no other" are specifically from Second Isaiah, c. 575 BCE. Second Isaiah is addressing the exiled Jewish community in Babylon, who were experiencing a crisis of faith after being ejected from Jerusalem, and many of whom were seeking comfort in the polytheistic religion of Babylon. This helps us understand the point of departure from the earliest Hebrew writings which made no such declarations of falsehood of local gods. King Solomon erected shrines to deities he and his people considered subordinate to YHWH. Hosea writing in the 8th century BCE equated worship of subordinate divinities with foreign political alliances (since YHWH was the God of Israel), but he did not claim that such divinites did not in fact exist. Deuteronomy, Jeremiah and Zephanaiah expressly identified the "hosts of heaven" as foreign objects of apostasy, but again made no claim regarding the unreality of those created beings. Reliance on, and loyalty to, a single God is distinct from denying the existence of other, less powerful deities. Second Isaiah is the first writer to do the latter, and to assert that God makes peace and justice as well as evil and woe.
Even after Second Isaiah makes this distinction of false divinities, there is still to this day embedded in Judeo-Chritian theology the idea that subordinate divinities, in the persons of angels, demons, and Satan, actually exist. Now monotheism takes on the element of loyalty to the high Creator God, as opposed to merely asserting that no other supernatural powers are extant. There is a passage somewhere in the Old Testament (alas, I cannot find it just now) that asserts that angels have dominion over the local provinces of the earth, that is, wells, streams, groves and so forth. If human beings mistakenly worship these angelic beings as gods, who have power over revered natural sites, then Second Isaiah's insistence that no other gods exist takes on the tone of metaphor, of righteous exaggeration, rather than of a literal factual statement. "I am the LORD and there is no other" can thus clearly be seen as Second Isaiah's way of having God remind the exiled Israelites: "You are worshipping beings whom I created; they are not gods; I am God".
NEXT TIME: Magic and the powers of sorcery, witchcraft, dinination and the raising of the dead.
EDIT: I also want to thank Jabba-wocky for another insightful, informative and clarifying post.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
6/12 11:11am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/12 11:11am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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So, if the judeo-christian deity is concerned about rival deities, not false deities, then reading works of fiction should be ok if they depict fake magical practices and make no reference to an existing rival deity?
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/12 11:22am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/12 11:23am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Vortigern99
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My answer would be yes, it should be okay. Jabba-wocky and other like-minded Christians evidently feel differently. From a Christian perspective, I think he makes a good point that even an otherwise innocuous pasttime such as basketball could, if it becomes an obsessive pursuit, take one away from the proper worship of God, by reducing one's time spent praying, attending Church, engaging in love of one's fellow and of the Lord. But that raises the question of why basketball in general is not opposed, but reading a book about a fictional form of witchcraft is, when both can present the same danger of obsessive, ungodly pursuit. Again, why single out Potter, if witchcraft is not real and one is only reading about it and not engaging in it? It seems illogical.
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"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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