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Topic:
Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
6/17 4:57pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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This ties in with Jabbadabbdo's earlier point that parents' angst about the Potter books will inspire children to investigate witchcraft moreso than the actual books.
Yeah, there's nothing like a little controversy to raise the profile and generate interest. It's one of the reasons prohibition never works. If you ban something, it just makes it that more desirable.
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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/17 5:30pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/17 5:31pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Vortigern99
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If the prohibition against Potter is in any way valid from a Christian perspective, I submit that the following works must also be banned/rejected/criticised as sinful/evil/Wiccan proselytizing/harmful to children:
Grimm's Fairy Tales, inc. Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Thumbelina, Beauty & the Beast, Jack and the Beanstalk
Andersen's Fairy Tales, inc. Little Mermaid
The Wizard of Oz, book and movie, and its sequels
All Disney and other animated versions of the above faity tales, plus Aladdin and its sequels, Hercules, "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" segment from the Fantasia films, Peter Pan, and anything else in which enchantment is portrayed in a positive light
Lloyd Alexander's Chronicles of Prydain
Ursula K. LeGuin's Earthsea Trilogies
Any and all Arthurian legends, and films based on those legends, in which Merlin is portrayed as a wizard
Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
All fantasy books ever printed, and all fantasy films released
The Christian right has their work cut out for them. It's a wonder every child in Christendom has not been seduced into apostasy by the sheer volume of witchcraft-positive works of fiction. I have no more to say in this thread and am content to let it fade away, now that my questions have been answered, and I've come to the conclusion that these accusations are utterly without merit. Thank you all for your contributions.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
6/18 6:36am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/18 6:37am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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I have no more to say in this thread and am content to let it fade away, now that my questions have been answered, and I've come to the conclusion that these accusations are utterly without merit. Thank you all for your contributions.
The real issue here is not that Christians are ignorant about the Harry Potter series or what constitutes witchcraft; the real problem is that millions of American Christians are ignorant or openly mistaken about Christianity. They don't even have a competent understanding of their own religion.
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Chancellor_Ewok
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/18 11:12am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/18 11:22am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Chancellor_Ewok
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Jabbadabbado posted:
I have no more to say in this thread and am content to let it fade away, now that my questions have been answered, and I've come to the conclusion that these accusations are utterly without merit. Thank you all for your contributions.
The real issue here is not that Christians are ignorant about the Harry Potter series or what constitutes witchcraft; the real problem is that millions of American Christians are ignorant or openly mistaken about Christianity. They don't even have a competent understanding of their own religion.
I agree. They don't even have a competant understanding of the Bible. The inscriptions on James and Lily's tombstones include passages from Matthew and Deutoronomy. Of course, that's on top of the fact that:
A)In both the Bible and Harry Potter, the comming of a saviour was foretold and was, in fact, preordained.
B) Both Harry and Jesus were required to sacrifce themselves in order to fulfill their respective purposes.
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For more information about the crack spider's bitch contact the Canadian Wildlife Service in Ottawa.
I robbed the second largest bank in France using only a ballpoint pen
I killed a man with this thumb.
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/18 11:41am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/18 11:44am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Vortigern99
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Jabbadabbado posted:
I have no more to say in this thread and am content to let it fade away, now that my questions have been answered, and I've come to the conclusion that these accusations are utterly without merit. Thank you all for your contributions.
The real issue here is not that Christians are ignorant about the Harry Potter series or what constitutes witchcraft; the real problem is that millions of American Christians are ignorant or openly mistaken about Christianity. They don't even have a competent understanding of their own religion.
I guess we can debate what "the real issue is" if you like. I can understand why Christians in general reject real-world witchcraft; it's right there in Galatians and Acts, among other passages. And not every person who is an avowed Christian has the time or inclination to study exactly what is meant by that term, as we've endeavored to do in this thread. It's understandable that the adherents of a certain faith or denomination would look to their leaders -- their pastors, priests and other church officials -- to interpret these ancient passages for them, requiring as that effort does a good deal of theological and historical knowledge that most people simply lack. So it is not the masses of Christians who reject Potter as sinful with whom I have a problem; they are only following the dictates of their leaders. On the surface of things it seems plausible, given the passages that rebuke "witchcraft".
No, my issue is with church officials who claim that Potter is harmful, in order to exercise control over their flock and remind them who's in charge of their day-to-day activities. I don't believe for an instant that God is offended by people -- children, adults, anyone -- reading about witchcraft, even if it were the kind that actually exists in the real world. If witchcraft is a sin, then okay, witchcraft is a sin. But reading about it or watching a movie about it, no matter how positively the practice is depicted, is not harmful or sinful.
Church leaders seem to be decrying the series as a kind of "slippery slope": Read about "fun" witchcraft, and suddenly you will want to be a witch! I don't think that has actually happened, with children or anyone else, who weren't already pre-disposed toward that particular (witchy) worldview. I myself, I must confess, returned to a study and pursuit of Wicca following the release of the Prisoner of Az-Kaban film in 2003, and my subsequent reading of the book. But I was 33 at the time, I had already delved into Wicca 10 years earlier and into witchcraft -- without the religious aspects of Wicca -- 10 years before that. I had already set my own path, established my own worldview which included the Wiccan set of beliefs and principles. A child reading or watching the Potter series for the first time might be inspired to investigate real-world witchcraft, but if their parents are Christian and there is love in the house, such self-education will not perforce lead to a renouncing of Christian ethics and beliefs and an embracing of the Wiccan path. It simply does not work that way. I would challenge any detractor of Potter to point to a single case where a child (or adult) has been "Wiccan-proselytized" out of Christendom.
And in any case, as has been my point all along, Potter does not depict real-world witchcraft, nor does it ever broach the subject of divine spirits, demons or gods. It's all sparking wands and mythic beasties. Any child excited by these facets of the Potter series will be sorely disappointed to learn that there are no correlations in real-world Wicca. No power words, no flying broomsticks, no hippogriffs, giants or elves, no magic swords, no teleportation. It's all fantastical fiction which, as exciting as it may be to read about, does not have any real-world correspondence. If anything, a Christian child perusing Potter for insight into how to gain such powers will be woefully disappointed, and return to Christian worship with the knowledge and understanding that such things simply do not exist.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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Chancellor_Ewok
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/18 11:52am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/18 11:57am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Chancellor_Ewok
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Well put, Vort. I would add to that by pointing out that I have never seen, heard or read of any instances where the books' detractors have been able to support their views with clear and concrete examples from the books. If they did that, then I would respect their opinions as misguided, but informed. Since they can't do that, I conclude that they have no opinions and are merely spouting ignorant waffle.
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For more information about the crack spider's bitch contact the Canadian Wildlife Service in Ottawa.
I robbed the second largest bank in France using only a ballpoint pen
I killed a man with this thumb.
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
6/18 7:47pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/18 7:51pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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No, my issue is with church officials who claim that Potter is harmful, in order to exercise control over their flock and remind them who's in charge of their day-to-day activities. I don't believe for an instant that God is offended by people -- children, adults, anyone -- reading about witchcraft, even if it were the kind that actually exists in the real world. If witchcraft is a sin, then okay, witchcraft is a sin. But reading about it or watching a movie about it, no matter how positively the practice is depicted, is not harmful or sinful.
I think this is the crux of it and is one of the reasons I respect religious faith (although I have none of my own) but have little respect for the machinery and bureaucracy of organised religion, whether it be christian, jewish or muslim. It seems to me to be a cynical attempt at social control through fear on an institutional and global scale.
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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Vezner
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
6/19 12:35pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/19 12:45pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Vezner
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All I know is what I witness and as a regular church goer who considers himself a "good Mormon" and moral conservative, I don't have any problems with Harry Potter, LOTR, Star Trek, Narnia, Star Wars, or any other fantasy novels or stories. I also live in a very religious community and I personally haven't met a single person that thinks HP is evil or should be avoided. I personally manage over 200 employees at work (mostly college students) and that doesn't include the socialization I have at church. So needless to say, I work and otherwise socialize with quite a few people. I'd say if there was some huge religious uprising against HP, at least among Utah Mormons, I would have seen or heard about it by now.
I think the assumption that there are "millions" of Christians in the USA and elsewhere around the world that think HP is evil is a pretty big exaggeration to say the least. Are there are few leaders that think it's evil? Sure. Do they have some followers that 100% agree with them on this? Sure. But does that represent most of Christendom? I doubt it.
In any case, who really cares? If you love HP, read it and enjoy it. If your church says you're going to hell because of that, then you may want to pray and ask God what he thinks. You may also want to rethink whether or not your church matches your faith. Just a suggestion. 
BTW, concerning the Golden Compass, I don't know about it being anti-Christian or anything, but I will say that I thought the movie just plain sucked. That's all the reason I need to avoid watching it again or any sequels for that matter. 
-----signature-----
McCain 2008  I support the troops that are fighting and dying for our Freedom! Christians have rights of expression too.  "The only thing necessary for the triumph [of evil] is for good men to do nothing." --Edmund Burke
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
6/19 2:36pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/19 2:37pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
LostOnHoth
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In any case, who really cares? If you love HP, read it and enjoy it. If your church says you're going to hell because of that, then you may want to pray and ask God what he thinks. You may also want to rethink whether or not your church matches your faith. Just a suggestion.
Well said. I agree that it is the more 'reactionary' element of christianity that seems to have issues with material such as HP et al. The Mormon church always strikes me as the most reasonable and least hysterical branch of christianity.
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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities - Voltaire
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/19 3:32pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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Well, for the record, I care, or I wouldn't have started this thread! Basically, my goal has been to understand the objection from a Christian perspective, and now I feel that I do. Jabba-wocky has been instrumental in this effort; even though I do not agree with his views on the matter, I am in debt to his insight and biblical education.
Vezner, I'm glad to read that Utah hasn't changed much since I spent two consecutive summers there in the 80s. The conservative Mormonism that constitutes the social and political authority in that state is balanced out nicely, at least in my experience in SLC, by a substantial counterculture of eco-friendly hippies and free thinkers. My own first introduction to real-world "witchcraft" happened there, via my father's ex-Mormon girlfriend, who had books about the Tarot and other magickal practices on her bookshelf. If not for the Mormon relgion of her parents, she might never have had anything to rebel against, and I might never have found myself attracted to her witchy tomes. In short, I think it's good that both "sides" exist to kind of keep each other in check.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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DarthKomar
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
6/19 11:30pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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Well I'm Christian and I'm fully opposed to Harry and the gang. I tried watching a trailer once and I just thought, "Dude this looks like some goth thing" how can anyone really be interested in that?
I've heard people say that in Harry Potter the good guys always win, but all though out history, witches and warlocks have been evil. So who's really winning? It's not only Gothic (being Gothic isn't a problem, I just personally think it's weird and I'm sure other people would agree with me) it's just plane Satanical.
I guess we should define "Magic" as TLOTR is considered to be Christian-like but they also use magic. My argument in this area would be that they use "Magic" for the benefit of others rather than for personal gain.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/20 6:58am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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I've been thinking about this thread a little, and I think I know what one of the major differences is between the forms of fantasy that are often called "Satanic" and those that are not.
The ones considered to have a corrupting influence tare those that show people learning to use magic. Where the major characters already know how to use it, the magic users are simply seen as being a powerful being, and therefore a type or model of God or Christ. Where people are learning magic instead, it is seen more as an attempt for someone to gain powers beyond what God originally gave them.
To some people's minds, it is one thing for a story to include powerful beings. It is completely different for it to show normal people becoming those same powerful beings.
Kimball Kinnison
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You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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Vortigern99
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/20 10:02am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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DarthKomar posted:
Well I'm Christian and I'm fully opposed to Harry and the gang. I tried watching a trailer once and I just thought, "Dude this looks like some goth thing" how can anyone really be interested in that?
I've heard people say that in Harry Potter the good guys always win, but all though out history, witches and warlocks have been evil. So who's really winning? It's not only Gothic (being Gothic isn't a problem, I just personally think it's weird and I'm sure other people would agree with me) it's just plane Satanical.
I guess we should define "Magic" as TLOTR is considered to be Christian-like but they also use magic. My argument in this area would be that they use "Magic" for the benefit of others rather than for personal gain.
Whether Potter is "Goth" is far beside the point here. That said, I for one have little understanding of what you mean by that. I've known and associated with Goths since the late 80s, and the eyeliner-wearing, lace-and-leather mixing, Doc Marten-boot-sporting, Bauhaus-listening type of person is not represented anywhere in the Potter books or films, much less pandered to with overt "Gothic" themes, music or images. That you have not seen the films or read the books, or even seen so much as an entire trailer for one of the films, makes it clear you don't have any idea as to what the Potter series is about.
You said: "all though out history, witches and warlocks have been evil." To what historical witches and warlocks could you be referring? To the millions of individuals -- men, women and children, including infants and the elderly -- burned at the stake, drowned, or tortured to death in the late Middle Ages in Europe, at the hands of church officials and local magnates, in the name of Christian purification? If so, could you please elucidate what you mean by your assertion that those people were "evil"? Or, if you mean some other "historical witches and warlocks", could you please name them so we can investigate their alleged misdeeds? Once more, I think you may be addressing a topic about which you actually know very little, if anything at all.
If your contention is that "good wizards" "use 'Magic' for the benefit of others rather than for personal gain", then we may safely call the heroic wizards and witches in the Potter series "good", since they certainly use their powers for the benefit of others, going so far as to risk or even in some cases sacrifice their lives for the good of all. If that's the distinction in your eyes, then you may dispense with this notion that the Potter wizards are "evil".
If you had actually ventured to read or watch even a few minutes of the Potter series, you would see that's the case, but instead you've bewilderingly chosen to make up your mind on a subject about which you are neither informed nor educated.
-----signature-----
"I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction.
I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece,
a fairy tale."--George Lucas
My "Vader's Origins" thread:
http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
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yuna_kenobi
Registered:
Aug '06
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Date Posted:
6/25 7:34am
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
- Date Edited:
6/25 7:43am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
yuna_kenobi
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I, being christian (LDS specifically), find these claims of Harry Potter being evil quite laughable. While, yes, I believe that witchcraft is evil (according to scripture and personal opinion), I see no evil in these or other fantasy books. Main-stream Christianity to me seems to be a bunch of cosmic morons trying to adhere to hellenistic ideas in a very liberal world.
And they obviously have no faith in schools (or themselves as parents for that matter) to teach their children both sides of an arguement. If they read the bible and Harry Potter, they will enjoy fine, uplifting literature, learning lessons about valor and integrity and also avoid the evils of real-world witchcraft.
The flipside being that I hear few people arguing against the Golden Compass, a book in which the objective is to kill God (who is portrayed as nothing more than a puppeteer pulling strings.)
Oh, the irony.
And DarthKomar, I have only one question for you: you really think your Christian?
Christ and the prophets throughout the bible ask us to see through other peoples eyes and to try to understand them. Can you honestly say that you tried to do that with Harry Potter? You are willing to pass judgement on something you have not even tried to understand. Just as LOTR has characters who use magic for good, so does Harry Potter, so if that is your only criticism of the series, then I suggest you amend your opinions. To opine without knowledge is rude, to state fact without it is cardinal sin.
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Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori.
Vi veri veniversum vivus vici.
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DarthKomar
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
6/25 10:05pm
Subject:
RE: Harry Potter = Satanic? / LOTR = Christian?
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Yes I can honestly say I have done that with Harry Potter. Maybe it's just me, a question of tastes. Some people can see Satanic stuff in HP and some don't.
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