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Topic:
Atheism 3.0: - Unconversion experiences
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DarthPoojaNaberrie
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
7/2 5:53pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
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maybe a better way of putting it, is i just wonder when it comes down to it, why someone would choose atheism over agnosticism.
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ShrunkenJedi
Registered:
Apr '03
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Date Posted:
7/2 6:01pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
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A few thoughts on that, then.
i. They generally think that some of the ideas expressed by any/all mainstream religions are destructive, and wish to disassociate themselves with religion
and/or
ii. They think from what they've seen that there's such a low chance of there being a God that it's much more honest to call it atheism than agnosticism. They don't just think it's impossible to know, they just don't believe in a God at all at this point.
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Quixotic-Sith
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
7/2 6:09pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
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DarthPoojaNaberrie posted:
maybe a better way of putting it, is i just wonder when it comes down to it, why someone would choose atheism over agnosticism.
Probably not too early to put this out there:
You don't need to choose one over the other, as they are asking different questions. Agnosticism/gnosticism is a question of knowledge (whether one can know details about or whether there is something transcending human experience), while theism/atheism is a question of metaphysics (whether something exists transcending human experience). Thus, there are four basic possibilities (with rough characterizations of their positions):
1. Agnostic atheist - We can't know, but I don't think there is something transcendent
2. Agnostic theist - We can't know, but I think there is something transcendent
3. Gnostic atheist - We can know, and I think there isn't something transcendent
4. Gnostic theist - We can know, and I think there is something transcendent
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JMJacenSolo
Registered:
May '06
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Date Posted:
7/2 6:26pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
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Quix, I know you yourself count yourself among the second category, but I find it somewhat confusing. If you think that there is something transcendant, isn't there an inherent possibility in the most philosophical sense that we might be able to discover what it is? Your position seems contradictory to me, because saying the transcendant element is forever undetectable is itself a detail of it.
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
7/2 6:38pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
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many atheists give the impression that they know and it is very important to find ways to prove to the ignorant people that there is no higher power
I'm not sure that I'm completely atheist, but I do know that I don't set myself upon the task of proving to anyone the existence or the non-existence of God (at least to anyone but myself).
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
7/2 7:09pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
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maybe a better way of putting it, is i just wonder when it comes down to it, why someone would choose atheism over agnosticism.
As an a-supernaturalist, agnosticism isn't a very practical option. Am I required to be open to the idea that anything is possible? Well, I know that to be false. Some things are not possible. I know for example that I can't will myself to sprout wings and fly, no matter how much Red Bull I drink. Do I need to be agnostic vis a vis any idea, no matter how silly? The judeo-christian mythos is just as unlikely to be true as every other supernatural belief.
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dianethx
Registered:
Mar '02
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Date Posted:
7/2 7:36pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
- Date Edited:
7/2 7:36pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
dianethx
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DarthPoojaNaberrie posted:
maybe a better way of putting it, is i just wonder when it comes down to it, why someone would choose atheism over agnosticism.
Ah, to me it's not a choice. If I had a choice, I'd probably choose to believe in a God because it's a lot easier to do so in the States - less trouble, less hassles, more of a social community plus there's that heaven thing. But I have to be honest with myself and I just can't believe it, not even enough to call myself agnostic.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
7/2 7:40pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
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That certainly gets to the heart of the matter: the extent to which beliefs like this are voluntary. Could I choose to believe that the world was flat if I really wanted to? Probably not. If I'm able to talk myself into a false belief, it would tend to be about how good looking I am...damn I'm hot.
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
7/2 7:41pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
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Well, the cognitive dissonance certainly gets in the way after a time, if not right from the start.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
7/2 7:47pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
- Date Edited:
7/2 7:52pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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It's hard to deny the appeal of some supernatural beliefs. The popularity of movies like Ghost and The Sixth Sense demonstrates the need for basic wish fulfillment fantasies about the possibility of an afterlife.
Maybe it is possible to believe in something for no better reason than you want it to be true... Damn I'm hot.
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leader a black man of modest origin, the son
of a Muslim. There is a place on Earth - call it
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
7/2 8:05pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
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Are you familiar with Dr. Ian Stevenson, Jabba? I'm not entirely closed off to what you would probably call "supernatural." My main view is that there is no intelligent, anthropomorphic God out there. I'm more willing to believe in things that don't necessarily require the existence of a god.
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
7/2 8:25pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
- Date Edited:
7/2 8:48pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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No, never heard of him, but he must have been an interesting guy. The idea of an afterlife doesn't seem to hold up well under scrutiny, for one thing because there's no way to scrutinize it, Dr. Stevenson notwithstanding.
Reading the Washington Post obituary of Dr. Stevenson, my heart went out to him. He literally interviewed hundreds and hundreds of two-to-four year olds speaking in languages he did not speak. What. A. Job.
Imagine being an investigator in a large criminal case in which your primary job was to collect the sworn testimony of hundreds of two year olds.
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leader a black man of modest origin, the son
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KnightWriter
Title:
Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
7/2 8:49pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
- Date Edited:
7/2 8:51pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
KnightWriter
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Jabbadabbado posted:
No, never heard of him, but he must have been an interesting guy. The idea of an afterlife doesn't seem to hold up well under scrutiny, for one thing because there's no way to scrutinize it, Dr. Stevenson notwithstanding.
Well, he did some pretty rigorous investigations of reincarnation over the last several decades of his life. It turned into his life's work. He wrote a summation of sorts, which was this book. I think it's important to avoid using reasoning like "this can't be possible because it isn't possible," which isn't scientific and isn't any less circular than using the Bible to prove the Bible.
So far as I've seen, his work is by far the most scientific in nature (and, like any good scientist, he did not draw any final conclusions), and is one of the few areas that I'm willing to take more seriously when it comes to the supernatural.
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SuperWatto
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
7/2 9:35pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
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Perhaps a bit late, but:
JMJacenSolo posted:
I was reading about the MLK assassination two days ago and I stumbled across a speech given by RFK shortly afterward. He talked about blacks and whites having to make a decision between moving towards further polarization or making a genuine effort to understand each other.
Man, that is one beautiful speech. I certainly see your 'what we need is a peacemaker' point. But people like this only really rise to the occasion in times of crisis, and I don't think there's really a crisis here. Is there?
Pooja posted:
it just seems like alot of atheists talk and speculate and focus on god and god-topics more than anyone else, more than theists. i don't understand why it is so important to them
Really? I think it's one of the most important things in the world. It defines your morality, your mortality, your individuality. It's nothing less than the ultimate search for truth.
Quix - in your list, I'm missing my own orientation:
We don't know if we can know, and we don't know if there's anything trancendent.
What am I?
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LostOnHoth
Registered:
Feb '00
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Date Posted:
7/2 9:45pm
Subject:
RE: Atheism 3.0: A new approach
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We don't know if we can know, and we don't know if there's anything trancendent.
What am I?
Donald Rumsfeld?
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